This looks like a fun thread. I'll wade in with a few points.
First, I've often seen people try to dismiss the arguments of others by calling them conspiracy theories, as though conspiracies either don't happen or are always visible to the public, neither of which are true. Conspiracies take place all the time, frequently affecting the highest levels in the political realm in particular. Hell, lobby groups ARE conspiracies, and they pretty much run politics. Even the Flames have closed door meetings to discuss only winning in the retro jerseys so they'll become the primary uniforms.
Second, I don't buy the "9/11 was an inside job" argument - the US government's response to 9/11 seemed clearly unprepared and shambolic, far too much so to be anything but genuine IMO. I think the fact that there was information about the threat of the attack well before it occurred, and that this information was ignored by the Bush administration, speaks only to the administration's incompetence.
There are, however, indications of smaller scale conspiracies within the broader context of 9/11. Chief among these was the authorization of the flying out of Bin Laden's family members while flight restrictions were still in effect for other aircraft. That is the type of call that presumably only comes from the top, and for reasons unknown. I've yet to see a good explanation for why this was allowed to occur.
The Iraq war, by contrast, was IMO the product of a clear conspiracy - the artificial engineering of a case for war using smoke and mirrors. From the Project For the New American Century, to the role of Halliburton, to the bald-faced attempts to connect Iraq to Al-Qaeda, the entire lead up to the war was manipulated by the Bush administration, and clumsily at that.
As for 9/11 though, no, I don't think it was anything other than what it appeared to be. Had the perpetrators been tied to Iraq (really, not fictionally as the Bush administration tried to do) then I could see an argument for conspiracy: a regime change in Iraq could benefit the US. But a change in Afghanistan? Not worth the conspiracy IMO.
Edit: Oh, and the flight that went down in Pennsylvania, I really thought that thing was shot down. I remember watching aerial footage of the debris trail, and it was little bits of debris, more little bits of debris, then BIG bits of debris - presumably the point of impact. Seemed to me the thing had to have broken up in the air to have a debris trail like that, suggesting it had been shot down. Personally, I think shooting it down would have been justified, but can see how the government might want to spin it to avoid appearing to have killed a bunch of innocent people, and instead making them into heroes. Can't remember what led to the definitive conclusion that it had been forced to the ground by passengers though...
I find it interesting that you brought up "A Project for a New American Century" as that document called for a "new Pearl Harbor event" to "rebuild Americas defenses"
I also believe the Shanksville plane was shot down by a scrambled jet.
What's also odd is where all of the people who were on that plane went to. What's the general thought on where they are now?
Have you heard of Operation Northwoods?
Quote:
Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag operation plan that originated within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other operatives to commit genuine acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro. One part of the Operation Northwoods plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington."
Operation Northwoods included proposals for hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. The plan stated:
"The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."
Quote:
Several other proposals were included within the Operation Northwoods plan, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Projectanti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted and the proposals included in the plan were never executed.
Quote:
The main proposal was presented in a document entitled "Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba (TS)," a top secret collection of draft memoranda written by the Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS).[1] The document was presented by the Joint Chiefs of Staff to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13 as a preliminary submission for planning purposes. The Joint Chiefs of Staff recommended that both the covert and overt aspects of any such operation be assigned to them.
The previously secret document was originally made public on November 18, 1997, by the John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Review Board,[2] a U.S. federal agency overseeing the release of government records related to John F. Kennedy's assassination.[3][4][5][6][7] A total 1521 pages of once-secret military records covering 1962 to 1964 were concomitantly declassified by said Review Board.
"Appendix to Enclosure A" and "Annex to Appendix to Enclosure A" of the Northwoods document were first published online by the National Security Archive on November 6, 1998 in a joint venture with CNN as part of CNN's 1998 Cold War television documentary series[8][9]—specifically, as a documentation supplement to "Episode 10: Cuba," which aired on November 29, 1998.[10][11] "Annex to Appendix to Enclosure A" is the section of the document which contains the proposals to stage terrorist attacks.
The Northwoods document was published online in a more complete form (i.e., including cover memoranda) by the National Security Archive on April 30, 2001.[12].
I have. My question still stands, if a plane did not hit the Pentagon (which you seem to be suggesting but apologies if I'm wrong) what happened with the plane and all of the people on it?
The Popular Mechanics issue on 9/11 conspiracies was very good as well.
And no, nothing will end the debate. A "Conspiracist" is a way of being, and the people that believe one typically believe them all. I had written out a well worded response to the "secondary explosion" video that attempted to explain a few things, but decided not to post it. Beerfest will not change his/her mind regardless of what is said on the issue... and that's fine- It doesn't really cause harm to anyone and they have the right to believe what they want-
except of course the low-life's who picket 9/11 memorial services
I am interested to see this legendary post that could explain away all the observations of hundreds of first responders and other witnesses...
There are alot of 9/11 victim families who are pursuing 9/11 truth as well...
Most people that I talk to DO think that 9/11 was "fishy" or B.S. at the very least. I think this board is naive or something. They talk abouit "conspiracy" like it doesn't happen.....like the world is this open honest place with rainbows and lollipops.
I have. My question still stands, if a plane did not hit the Pentagon (which you seem to be suggesting but apologies if I'm wrong) what happened with the plane and all of the people on it?
Northwoods proves that the US governement has considered using "false flag" attacks to achieve what they want.
It should of been a wake up call to people that the government has at least considered something like this in the past, so they could very well consider it again in the future and carry through with it.
I personally at this time dont know what happened to the passengers or the plane, but I have yet anything that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that a plane hit the Pentagon.
The passengers very well could of been executed and the plane destroyed.
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck
See post #106
Okay....you are accusing me of not looking at all the facts to ascertain the truth. All your myths have been debunked in the scientific community and the fact you are still in denial says it all.
Most people that I talk to DO think that 9/11 was "fishy" or B.S. at the very least. I think this board is naive or something. They talk abouit "conspiracy" like it doesn't happen.....like the world is this open honest place with rainbows and lollipops.
If 9/11 occuring as the government claims it did is your idea of rainbows and lollipops...
Both sides have evidence. I happen to not believe much in the way of conspiracy here, and at one point, I actually did. Once I examined ALL of the evidence, I concluded that it wasn't an inside job. Mishandled, yes. But in all honesty, how you you even HANDLE the aftermath of something like this?
My biggest question is, why in the hell were those style of boxcutters allowed on a plane? I had the USA confiscate letter openers from my CHECKED (not carry on) luggage. Also, it was only in the USA because most of the luggage from our direct Warsaw, Poland to Edmonton flight was diverted to Chicago due to the plane not having an ideal runway open thus having to shed weight. Upon the luggage being delivered to our door, the letter openers were gone, taken by the US government over a year before 9/11. Why were those things permitted to carry on I don't know.
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