The comments so far are generally in line with what I heard during my travels in Europe. But it's interesting because there seems to be consistency in the anecdotal experiences people share about Roma, and there is clearly a stereotype that - although it is clearly very pejorative - appears to have been widely sanctioned (even state-sanctioned). There are obvious parallels with the historical Jewish experience in Europe too, although it's clear there are vast differences between the two groups. I suppose there are parallels between the Roma and other marginalized groups too - I've heard their situation likened to a social apartheid. And of course, there's the whole chicken-egg/persecuted-impoverished angle that seems to divide politicians and human rights advocates.
I have a hard time believing that any ethnic group, especially one as large as the Roma (10 million in Europe), could have a culture that is as uniform and unlikeable as theirs is so widely believed to be.
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It's hard to know what the cause/effect is. Do other Roma make it nearly impossible to leave the culture? If they wanted to get an honest job or learn a skill, could they?
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Originally Posted by tete
I've heard stuff recently comparing the Roma to First Nations in Canada - ostracized, demeaned, suppressed and stereotyped by unflattering characteristics. I simply do not know enough about the entire Roma culture to comment more on this, it's just something I've heard.
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Originally Posted by tete
They were sent to Nazi concentration camps along with Jews, the mentally disabled and others groups that the Nazis wanted exterminated.
These comments all kind of reflect where I'm at: I know they have a history of persecution and a large number live in poverty in Europe, but other than that... who are they, why are they in this situation, and what's likely going to happen to them?
Late at night in Prague at a bus station we ran into a guy who claimed to be part of an organization that defends the rights of Roma. He told us he had been mugged by Roma and had his wallet stolen and that he wouldn't be able to clear anything up until the weekend was over and he could get to his office. He looked well dressed and didn't ask us for any money.
These comments all kind of reflect where I'm at: I know they have a history of persecution and a large number live in poverty in Europe, but other than that... who are they, why are they in this situation, and what's likely going to happen to them?
As far as I know they are Gypsies, "travellers". They had no particular country they called their home and wandered around Europe. Obviously in today's times the descendants of those people wouldn't have a lot of money, rights, citizenship, documentation, etc and use whatever means they can to get by. They seem to be reviled in many countries in Europe. I remember seeing a "No Travellers" sign in a British Pub when I was young and asked my parents if we were allowed to go in.
I spent about a month and a half doing a field school in Prague and Roma were a big issue there. I never ran into them myself but I have heard of large numbers of kids harassing tourists.
But I'm sure you can find better info on the web if you look. If that guy at the bus stop was not lying then there must be some websites for that organization that is trying to defend Roma rights in the Czech Republic.
Philip Pullman's description of the boat people in the Dark Materials series struck me as possibly being inspired by Gypsies/Roma.
I have a hard time believing that any ethnic group, especially one as large as the Roma (10 million in Europe), could have a culture that is as uniform and unlikeable as theirs is so widely believed to be.
They seem to be complete outsiders unlike the Jews who integrated themselves into many different cultures, integrated themselves into the social, political and financial infrastructure. Why is it shocking that cultural groups would look down on them almost universally? They basically reject what we think of as society and they in turn are rejected. Thats my basic impression.
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This is about as middle ground a thing as I've found so far.
The more I read, from the anecdotes and news stories that all seem to match, to the prevailing political situation in Europe, to the lukewarm and vague human rights defences and Roma websites - it does seem that where there's smoke there's fire.
I guess I'm just surprised to find such harsh criticisms of a widespread ethnic group to contain so much apparent truth.
They seem to be complete outsiders unlike the Jews who integrated themselves into many different cultures, integrated themselves into the social, political and financial infrastructure. Why is it shocking that cultural groups would look down on them almost universally? They basically reject what we think of as society and they in turn are rejected. Thats my basic impression.
Well said. Your wisdom extends beyond hockey prospects.
I acutally Lived in Czech Republic in 2007 (east side, bordering Poland) and although I did notice the Roma they didnt cause me too much trouble. My girlfriend there was harrassed by one while going to work....not asking for money but just being annoying...asking random questions...so basically had to walk her to the bus stop every morning....so that sucked....The Czech friends I did hang with did tell me to stay away from them...
Actually saw a fight on the tram between 3 Roma and 3 Czechs....
I actually had to be extra careful as I am a minority...so had the Roma and the Neo Nazis to watch ...
Overall, Czech Republic is beautiful...and would go back in a heartbeat...
I'm pretty sure I've told the story on here before about how I was mobbed by a group of about a dozen 10-year-old Roma boys in St Petersburg. I was on my way from the train-station so I had my big packpack and another bag, and very limited mobility. Still, I was able to fight them off pretty well, and the only thing that they were able to get was my glasses case, which they just dropped and left since they were useless to them.
I'm pretty sure I've told the story on here before about how I was mobbed by a group of about a dozen 10-year-old Roma boys in St Petersburg. I was on my way from the train-station so I had my big packpack and another bag, and very limited mobility. Still, I was able to fight them off pretty well, and the only thing that they were able to get was my glasses case, which they just dropped and left since they were useless to them.
Here where I live, natives on the reserve get money thrown at them steady, for instance, $100,000 when they turn 18.
The Oil companies pay the bands a handsome "ransom" that is distributed regularly throughout their lives.
Right, which means they have no excuse for not being contributing members of society and all being a bunch of drunk hooligans.
Who cares if they grew up on a reserve where addiction and abuse is rampant because the previous generation grew up on a reserve where addiction and abuse was rampant or were sent away from their families to schools where they were all abused. The money should buy away all those problems! I know right?
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The Roma are overall a very sad story. I lived in Romania from 2001-2003 (and parts of Moldova, but not as prevalent there). While there are obviously a large number of Roma that subscribe to a lot of the stereotypical "norms" described in this thread, many of them break away from that grouping and become some of the most wonderful people I've ever met.
Two of the best people I ever met in this world are Roma.
I don't for a second want to say that many of them are a product of their environment - it's far more complicated than that. I knew a young girl who was grossly disfigured...I had a chance to sit and talk with her for a few minutes and she confided in me that her parents had broken her bones and arranged them in grotesque ways so as to make her a more pitiful beggar (and therefore more successful). Obviously, the parents of the girl won't get any sympathy from me, but what kind of future can we realistically expect a girl like that to enjoy?
A difficult, and complicated problem. But be wary of anyone who tries to tell you that they're just not good people as a whole. As someone else in this thread mentioned, it's difficult to believe that an entire race of people could be as bad as they're purported to be.
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I'm always weary of labeling such a large group and demonizing them, having said that I don't know much about them nor could I give a strong opinion either way. But I tend to think those without a voice tend to be scapegoated and demonized quite easily, especially during struggles like economic downturns.
This was a good little documentary.
__________________ Allskonar fyrir Aumingja!!
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I knew a young girl who was grossly disfigured...I had a chance to sit and talk with her for a few minutes and she confided in me that her parents had broken her bones and arranged them in grotesque ways so as to make her a more pitiful beggar (and therefore more successful). Obviously, the parents of the girl won't get any sympathy from me, but what kind of future can we realistically expect a girl like that to enjoy?
I seriously got such nasty chills after reading this I had to go have a shower to warm up. Seriously, wtf?
The comments so far are generally in line with what I heard during my travels in Europe. But it's interesting because there seems to be consistency in the anecdotal experiences people share about Roma, and there is clearly a stereotype that - although it is clearly very pejorative - appears to have been widely sanctioned (even state-sanctioned).
The anecdotes are only valid for those Roma that are in that group of so called gypsies (from what I understand, it is very difficult to break out of that lifestyle). There certainly seems to be a problem with the gypsies, citizens of many nations seriously want to kick them out, or worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flylock shox
There are obvious parallels with the historical Jewish experience in Europe too, although it's clear there are vast differences between the two groups. I suppose there are parallels between the Roma and other marginalized groups too - I've heard their situation likened to a social apartheid. And of course, there's the whole chicken-egg/persecuted-impoverished angle that seems to divide politicians and human rights advocates.
The Jews were major contributors to whatever nation they were in, so I don't see a parallel (Jews were disliked based on lies or other forms of hate). The distaste for gypsies is based on perceived lifestyle choices that often conflict with local laws and customs. This is a harsh reality of the crime associated with gypsies. I am not sure how many Roma live that lifestyle that are not criminals or that live a more regional lifestyle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flylock shox
I have a hard time believing that any ethnic group, especially one as large as the Roma (10 million in Europe), could have a culture that is as uniform and unlikeable as theirs is so widely believed to be.
It is getting pretty bad. I think there are towns that built walls (similar to Israel) to keep villages of gypsies out. I will have to look that up... It seems to be a pretty nasty situation that as your posts reminds us, is largely hidden from view.
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The anecdotes are only valid for those Roma that are in that group of so called gypsies (from what I understand, it is very difficult to break out of that lifestyle). There certainly seems to be a problem with the gypsies, citizens of many nations seriously want to kick them out, or worse.
The Jews were major contributors to whatever nation they were in, so I don't see a parallel (Jews were disliked based on lies or other forms of hate). The distaste for gypsies is based on perceived lifestyle choices that often conflict with local laws and customs. This is a harsh reality of the crime associated with gypsies. I am not sure how many Roma live that lifestyle that are not criminals or that live a more regional lifestyle.
It is getting pretty bad. I think there are towns that built walls (similar to Israel) to keep villages of gypsies out. I will have to look that up... It seems to be a pretty nasty situation that as your posts reminds us, is largely hidden from view.
The Roma are overall a very sad story. I lived in Romania from 2001-2003 (and parts of Moldova, but not as prevalent there). While there are obviously a large number of Roma that subscribe to a lot of the stereotypical "norms" described in this thread, many of them break away from that grouping and become some of the most wonderful people I've ever met.
Two of the best people I ever met in this world are Roma.
I don't for a second want to say that many of them are a product of their environment - it's far more complicated than that. I knew a young girl who was grossly disfigured...I had a chance to sit and talk with her for a few minutes and she confided in me that her parents had broken her bones and arranged them in grotesque ways so as to make her a more pitiful beggar (and therefore more successful). Obviously, the parents of the girl won't get any sympathy from me, but what kind of future can we realistically expect a girl like that to enjoy?
A difficult, and complicated problem. But be wary of anyone who tries to tell you that they're just not good people as a whole. As someone else in this thread mentioned, it's difficult to believe that an entire race of people could be as bad as they're purported to be.
Very interesting/conflicting experience, but pretty characteristic of what I've managed to research myself. You've obviously had very positive interactions with Roma, in addition to learning some very negative things. All the stuff I'm finding online is similar - even among people who are adopting a pro-Roma position, the support is much more guarded than I would have expected it to be, and I get a sense that they are deliberately avoiding some issues relating to Roma culture itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
The anecdotes are only valid for those Roma that are in that group of so called gypsies (from what I understand, it is very difficult to break out of that lifestyle). There certainly seems to be a problem with the gypsies, citizens of many nations seriously want to kick them out, or worse.
The Jews were major contributors to whatever nation they were in, so I don't see a parallel (Jews were disliked based on lies or other forms of hate). The distaste for gypsies is based on perceived lifestyle choices that often conflict with local laws and customs. This is a harsh reality of the crime associated with gypsies. I am not sure how many Roma live that lifestyle that are not criminals or that live a more regional lifestyle.
It is getting pretty bad. I think there are towns that built walls (similar to Israel) to keep villages of gypsies out. I will have to look that up... It seems to be a pretty nasty situation that as your posts reminds us, is largely hidden from view.
That's part of what boggles my mind a bit: how is it this culture - that appears to be so nomadic, so reviled, and frankly so difficult to live as a part of - has managed to survive in this way for 900 years? What keeps people in it? How is it they haven't integrated to a greater degree? I can only assume it's because the culture is a strong one, there are all sorts of control structures built into it, and one of its primary characteristics is that it simply does not desire any form of integration.
I should also clarify - my comments likening the Roma experience in Europe to that of the Jewish experience weren't meant to say that their cultures are similar, only that the way they are being treated (the pervasive stereotyping, the attempts to excise them and push them out, the growing public acceptance of their persecution) seem to parallel much of what the Jews went through in many parts of Europe.
Last edited by flylock shox; 08-29-2010 at 11:58 AM.
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Well they were religious outsiders in the mostly Christian Europe, but their religion allowed them to lend money at interest to foreigners, whereas Christians were forbidden to do it.
Obviously when one cultural group can make money of our nothing by lending it when most of Europe is forbidden that can lead to some resentment.
The usury issue highlights some of the differences between the hatred of Roma vs hatred of Jews. Both Outsiders but it seems the Jews were stereotyped as profiteers whereas the Roma might be seen as thieves or beggars. Subtle difference I guess.
