City employee doesn't care for PD

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

The workshops sound like a colossal waste of taxpayers money. These PD days were for seasonal park workers. As a taxpayer, I think my money could be better spent elsewhere.

Does your company offer any sort of PD days? how about Christmas parties? Are they useless for your company?

How does it make things any different for the City or seasonal workers? Are seasonal workers garbage? Just mindless drones that have no value to the company? Why give them any training to help with their job? Not like seasonal workers ever become anything more than that, like managers or full time workers.

[First Lady]

I wonder if they do "feedback surveys" at the end of each PD day.

Or exit interviews at the end of term.

Seems to me those might be more effective avenues to help the city.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Does your company offer any sort of PD days? how about Christmas parties? Are they useless for your company?

Not if our company is losing millions of dollars. And a Christmas party is not a paid function. If you want to do Personal Development for the most part your free to do so, but its unpaid, and on the employees dime. In the case of classes or PD that's paid for by the company we don't pay them for the time off or taking the courses on their own time.

Originally Posted by Rathji

How does it make things any different for the City or seasonal workers? Are seasonal workers garbage? Just mindless drones that have no value to the company? Why give them any training to help with their job? Not like seasonal workers ever become anything more than that, like managers or full time workers.

They are temp workers, there's next to no intent to keep them, I'm all for training for their jobs, but according to the story thats not really what this was doing. There was a short video on equipment use, the rest of it sounded like a waste of time and money. A motivational speaker shouldn't be needed especially on the first day at work. Temp workers don't need to worry about conflict resolution, since to me thats something that should be left to the managers and supervisors to take care of, and it shouldn't have taken the time it did, and it didn't require glossy handouts or guest speakers.

[V]

I have worked very closely with several city departments over the last 10 years, so while I am not a city employee, I am very familiar with how 4 different departments there are run.

The problem is not the union, although it doesn't help. The problem isn't the overwhelming number of slackers, either, because to be honest, in the departments I've worked with, there are some pretty smart people that take their job pretty seriously.

The problem is the fact that there's no incentive to be efficient. As such, there is so much redundancy built into these departments that you could probably gut half of the managers in the city and you would still be able to produce nearly as much work. It's truly painful to watch, and I would go bat-sh*t crazy if I tried to do my job inside that framework.

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Does your company offer any sort of PD days? how about Christmas parties? Are they useless for your company?

How does it make things any different for the City or seasonal workers? Are seasonal workers garbage? Just mindless drones that have no value to the company? Why give them any training to help with their job? Not like seasonal workers ever become anything more than that, like managers or full time workers.

I work for a publicly traded company, who answers to their shareholders not the taxpayer and equating PD days to Christmas parties is a bit of a stretch as the two have nothing in common.

Seasonal employees are temporary employees usually doing a semi-skilled job for a season. So other than doing their seasonal task, they have no value to the company. I have no problem with them receiving training on how to operate a weedwacker. I do have a problem with them spending a day listing to some guy in a Cosby sweater going on about who moved whom's cheese.

[Rathji]

I say this as someone who has worked as a labourer in some of the worst grunt labour and semi-skilled labour positions available. I have also been responsible for supervision and productivity of employees on a production line and and as a business owner in the landscaping field. I know what works when dealing with employees and while I do not think my opinions are the only way to do things, I have had enough experience to know that they are valid.

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

I work for a publicly traded company, who answers to their shareholders not the taxpayer and equating PD days to Christmas parties is a bit of a stretch as the two have nothing in common.

Both build company moral, and help build a sense of connection between members of an organization who might only ever deal with each other on opposite end of an email/phone line/work force crew.

Seasonal employees are temporary employees usually doing a semi-skilled job for a season. So other than doing their seasonal task, they have no value to the company. I have no problem with them receiving training on how to operate a weedwacker. I do have a problem with them spending a day listing to some guy in a Cosby sweater going on about who moved whom's cheese.

By training an employee in more than just their immediate task you can help them understand the larger picture about what needs to be done, resolve disputes on their own, and just in general being happier more well adjusted part of a work force. This can have a very large impact on productivity and directly impact the workload of a supervisor, a person you have probably put a very large amount of time and money into training and developing. This will allow a single supervisor to be able to handle more employees and more likely to return to their position the following season, assuming they are seasonal as well. If you treat your employees as people who are only valuable in doing the non-skilled work they have been assigned, then they will realize they are worthless to you and not put any effort into their task.

That said, there is definitely a point where you have diminishing returns and this might be one of them. It also depends on when they are scheduled. Often times there are time periods when nothing can get done, due to weather, scheduling or other logistical concerns. If this is the time that is being used for some of these things then there is no possibility of it being a waste of time . However, given the article it does not appear that this is the case.

Room for improvement, absolutely.

A total failure, not a chance.

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Every company does have slackers, but none as much as the City of Calgary. Their union pretty much makes it impossible to be fired.

Several people I know work for the city and them taking hour long naps on tax-payer dime is not out of the ordinary.

It sounds like that has more to do with the people you know.

Stop spreading out and out lies and slander.

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I say this as someone who has worked as a labourer in some of the worst grunt labour and semi-skilled labour positions available. I have also been responsible for supervision and productivity of employees on a production line and and as a business owner in the landscaping field. I know what works when dealing with employees and while I do not think my opinions are the only way to do things, I have had enough experience to know that they are valid.



Both build company moral, and help build a sense of connection between members of an organization who might only ever deal with each other on opposite end of an email/phone line/work force crew.



By training an employee in more than just their immediate task you can help them understand the larger picture about what needs to be done, resolve disputes on their own, and just in general being happier more well adjusted part of a work force. This can have a very large impact on productivity and directly impact the workload of a supervisor, a person you have probably put a very large amount of time and money into training and developing. This will allow a single supervisor to be able to handle more employees and more likely to return to their position the following season, assuming they are seasonal as well. If you treat your employees as people who are only valuable in doing the non-skilled work they have been assigned, then they will realize they are worthless to you and not put any effort into their task.

That said, there is definitely a point where you have diminishing returns and this might be one of them. It also depends on when they are scheduled. Often times there are time periods when nothing can get done, due to weather, scheduling or other logistical concerns. If this is the time that is being used for some of these things then there is no possibility of it being a waste of time . However, given the article it does not appear that this is the case.

Room for improvement, absolutely.

A total failure, not a chance.

Whilst I think the majority of these courses are a regurgitation of common sense, I'm not against empowering your employees through various positive strokes.

BTW, Christmas parties don't build moral. Free unlimited booze builds staff moral.

You want to find out the where the deficiencies in your organization lie. Take the grunts out for beer and wings, after about 3 pints, you'll be hearing exactly where your company falls down.

I'll reiterate, these are seasonal workers, if they manage to get perm status, then invest/bore them with PD days. Until then, they're hired to mow lawns. Not get in touch with their inner self.

[HotHotHeat]

Couple things. Not going to read through this entire thread, but I'm guessing most people are disagreeing with the article after the first few that I did read.

I worked for the city this year as well, third year with them. I was at this orientation. The motivational speaker was a regurgitative tool. He had no charisma, and talked as if we were nine year old special needs kids.

The 'training' we got wasn't training at all. It was a generic exercise that was terribly planned and even more terribly executed.

The problem with the City of Calgary Parks Division is as follows. No (expletive) accountability. The labourers don't work very hard because they are not given any responsibility (for example.... We want you to have x number of parks finished by the end of today). This doesn't happen because the supervisors of these labourers aren't given any schedule to keep pace to by the district manager (I should mention, I'm changing the names of these positions, but the chain of command is correct). The district manager doesn't do this because (in my experience) they are just terrible managers. Bad at managing people, time, projects, resources, etc.

Like I said, this is my third year working with them, and each year I've had a different district manager. They're all so freaking incompetent it's sickening.

The most frustrating part about working for the city is the response you get from the supervisors when you voice displeasure or desire to change something. Usually it's along the lines of "The more you care about this job, the more frustrated you'll get. The best thing to do is just not care about things very much and go through the motions."

I half expect that above quote to be unbelievable for most people, but I can assure you it's happened to me on more than one occasion from different people.

The City of Calgary is a giant cluster**** of taxpayer resources, and it's getting worse by the year. The culture of laziness, lack of accountability, and piss poor management is incredibly frustrating to observe on a day to day basis.

I completely side with Kacie in her freelance piece. Good on her for using her available channel to voice her thoughts. More city employees need to speak out on the wasteful spending that goes on. It's not as bad as you think it is, it's worse.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I say this as someone who has worked as a labourer in some of the worst grunt labour and semi-skilled labour positions available. I have also been responsible for supervision and productivity of employees on a production line and and as a business owner in the landscaping field. I know what works when dealing with employees and while I do not think my opinions are the only way to do things, I have had enough experience to know that they are valid.



Both build company moral, and help build a sense of connection between members of an organization who might only ever deal with each other on opposite end of an email/phone line/work force crew.



By training an employee in more than just their immediate task you can help them understand the larger picture about what needs to be done, resolve disputes on their own, and just in general being happier more well adjusted part of a work force. This can have a very large impact on productivity and directly impact the workload of a supervisor, a person you have probably put a very large amount of time and money into training and developing. This will allow a single supervisor to be able to handle more employees and more likely to return to their position the following season, assuming they are seasonal as well. If you treat your employees as people who are only valuable in doing the non-skilled work they have been assigned, then they will realize they are worthless to you and not put any effort into their task.

That said, there is definitely a point where you have diminishing returns and this might be one of them. It also depends on when they are scheduled. Often times there are time periods when nothing can get done, due to weather, scheduling or other logistical concerns. If this is the time that is being used for some of these things then there is no possibility of it being a waste of time . However, given the article it does not appear that this is the case.

Room for improvement, absolutely.

A total failure, not a chance.

To spend 451,200 on a two day orientation seminar for temporary park workers and then adding on the costs of producing shiny booklets, hiring a motivational speaker and the beneftits payments and then showing a 20 minute video on job safety is to me a tremendous failure, and a statement of tremendous arrogance when it comes to dealing with taxpayer dollars. Especially when you consider that most of these workers will not become permanent employees.

I've always worked for private industry and I've never seen full days of PD. Employees are more then welcome to take personal development classes and they get reimbursed when they pass.

This to me when the city is facing a deficit, has a serious procurement problem and have next to no control over contracts is tremendously stupid and wasteful.


I've also never ever worked at a job where you need to sit through two days of PD, I also don't believe that you don't need a silly motivational speaker when the prime motivation for these temp workers is to make a paycheck by . . . working.

The more I read this, the more ridiculous that it seems.

[mykalberta]

That page of there Herald is letter to editor I believe - any whacko, even some spoiled prissy chick with a slack summer job can write in and complain about anything they want to. I read it, laughed/cried at how much people make to cut grass and then moved on.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

That page of there Herald is letter to editor I believe - any whacko, even some spoiled prissy chick with a slack summer job can write in and complain about anything they want to. I read it, laughed/cried at how much people make to cut grass and then moved on.

Ignorance at its best right here.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To spend 451,200 on a two day orientation seminar for temporary park workers and then adding on the costs of producing shiny booklets, hiring a motivational speaker and the beneftits payments and then showing a 20 minute video on job safety is to me a tremendous failure, and a statement of tremendous arrogance when it comes to dealing with taxpayer dollars. Especially when you consider that most of these workers will not become permanent employees.

I've always worked for private industry and I've never seen full days of PD. Employees are more then welcome to take personal development classes and they get reimbursed when they pass.

This to me when the city is facing a deficit, has a serious procurement problem and have next to no control over contracts is tremendously stupid and wasteful.


I've also never ever worked at a job where you need to sit through two days of PD, I also don't believe that you don't need a silly motivational speaker when the prime motivation for these temp workers is to make a paycheck by . . . working.

The more I read this, the more ridiculous that it seems.

I agree that having 2 days is a waste on seasonal workers, but to say all of that time is wasteful would be foolish.

As for private industry providing PD, maybe I have just been lucky. I have 5 yearly PD days at my current job. 4 are provided by the company as seminars etc and the last one is for use at my discretion. In past employment I have received multiple certifications from first aid to air brake and management training all on company time at their expense.

When I ran my own company I provided many of my employees the same benefits when it was appropriate. Like I said in my post, the biggest problem I have with it in this situation is there is often down time (rain days etc) associated with this type of work that can be used for most of this type of training. It is very clear that this downtime is not being used here and it should be.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

=

The City of Calgary is a giant cluster**** of taxpayer resources, and it's getting worse by the year. The culture of laziness, lack of accountability, and piss poor management is incredibly frustrating to observe on a day to day basis.

This happens a lot in every unionized industry. I know that all unions are not bad, but it really does create that culture that people grow to expect to get away with what they have been for x years, and it won't change without a wholesale employee change out or a very skilled manager taking charge.

Problem is often people are promoted from within so they perpetuate the culture. Which is why you should try to avoid promoting a manager from within an organization if this is a problem.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

That page of there Herald is letter to editor I believe - any whacko, even some spoiled prissy chick with a slack summer job can write in and complain about anything they want to. I read it, laughed/cried at how much people make to cut grass and then moved on.

Wow, so she's a spoiled prissy chick with a slack summer job.

Yet we all praise other whistle blowers, so whats the difference? Is it because its in the letter to the editor?

To me, good for her, she saw the wasteful stupidity and wrote about it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Rathji

This happens a lot in every unionized industry. I know that all unions are not bad, but it really does create that culture that people grow to expect to get away with what they have been for x years, and it won't change without a wholesale employee change out or a very skilled manager taking charge.

Problem is often people are promoted from within so they perpetuate the culture. Which is why you should try to avoid promoting a manager from within an organization if this is a problem.

Yup you see a lot of the Peter Principle at the City of Calgary.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I agree that having 2 days is a waste on seasonal workers, but to say all of that time is wasteful would be foolish.

As for private industry providing PD, maybe I have just been lucky. I have 5 yearly PD days at my current job. 4 are provided by the company as seminars etc and the last one is for use at my discretion. In past employment I have received multiple certifications from first aid to air brake and management training all on company time at their expense.

When I ran my own company I provided many of my employees the same benefits when it was appropriate. Like I said in my post, the biggest problem I have with it in this situation is there is often down time (rain days etc) associated with this type of work that can be used for most of this type of training. It is very clear that this downtime is not being used here and it should be.

I have to ask, was the company that you were working for a money losing organization. Was it entrusted with effectively spending someone elses money? Did you poop can more important and needed programs to keep the PD days?

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

It sounds like that has more to do with the people you know.

Stop spreading out and out lies and slander.

Maybe, but they still work for the City of Calgary so if I know them or not makes no difference. They are still lazy workers, and this isn't something that is breaking news or anything. Anyone who lives in Calgary knows that the City of Calgary workers are the most slack workers out there. Could you blame them though? They are protected by one of the best unions out there. You probably have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than getting fired from the City of Calgary. No motivation whatsoever.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I have to ask, was the company that you were working for a money losing organization. Was it entrusted with effectively spending someone elses money? Did you poop can more important and needed programs to keep the PD days?

Of the 3 organizations I referred to: one was (and still is) the largest privately owned company in the world, I assume they were making enough money to justify their policies on a widespread basis. All my certifications, except my air-brake endorsement came through them, paid on company time. None were related to the position I held when I took them, and most were not (directly) related to any position I ever held within the company.

The second, was a small business that ultimately stopped operation when work dried up due to the economic collapse, as its success was tied closely with the construction industry being very busy.

The last, which I currently work for, that provides 5 'PD' days a year, is a non-profit organization, and that may skew it a bit, just due to it being somewhat of a 'touchy feely' type place to work. We have policies which prevent us from going over budget and as I understand it the majority of our funding is provided by organizations such as the United Way or FCSS (Ironicly enough, a City of Calgary Division). As an organization, they understand that a happy, well trained employee is more productive when they are part of a close knit team. I know when the recession hit there were lots of cuts to be made, since funding dries up hardcore in times like this, and they made the choice to keep the PD days rather than hire additional staff or expand existing programs. They are certainly not elaborate, high cost endeavors from what I have seen. No glossy booklets or fancy venues, however occasionally they do involve some seemingly pointless exercises like motivational speakers, laughter therapy or group yoga.

Not sure if that answers your questions, but there's the facts.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There's no reason to have a one day or 2 day orientation session for seasonal employees that covers conflict resolution, a motivational speaker, and a 20 minute film.

I can see the need for it. These employees are front line workers and represent the City under the constant eye of the public. They need to be made aware that anything and everything they do will be watched and scrutinized. Because if they don't then Joe public will be calling 3-1-1 to complain that his tax dollars are going to fund some young kids horsing around with a weed wacker.

If you run a private business doing landscaping you can probably afford not to have extensive orientation sessions with your employee's due to the fact that you just can them if they are not working out. This is obviously not the case at the city. Therefore, you are forced to spend a lot of time on the front end making sure they know exactly what is expected of them in the publics eye.