A good example of why athiests suck

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There was no intent for it to be used in a religious way here.



I just don't see how this is religious propogation,

Iron Cross. From Teutonic Knights. Formed to aid Catholics in their crusades to the holy land.

And not similar in form to the Christian crosses at hand.

Ok, are we talking about church and state seperation, or protecting people from religion. Because those are two seperate issues.

Separation of Church and State. Public land is "state". Unavoidable crosses is "church".

Again, This was a memorial that was privately funded, and I'm willing to bet that the symbols were chosen with the consent of the fallen officers family.

One would hope. Too bad they plonked them down on public land where everyone was exposed to them, and some considered them to be religious prosthelytizing (a fair criticism if you didn't know what they were there for).

Did you fund the actual memorials? Did you pay any part of it?

?

What does that have to do with anything? They violated the law, and I was pointing out the ways they could express the memorial in a legal manner.

We will have to agree to disagree, I see this as petty and vindictive and hair splitting because I don't see how this is anything to do with religion. I also think its hilarious that people are going on about how offensive it is to them to even see something like this, yet we convieniently ignore the fact that religious expression is protected. This has nothing to do with the government beyond the land issue. But I don't see how its any kind of amalgamation of church and state.

Was this an election issue?

I would fight just as hard for anyone's right to religious expression in their private lives. Do whatever you like (that's legal). But don't put it in the public sphere where I can't get away from it.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Perhaps it should be re-examined. I'm all for commemorating fallen military, but the silver cross is simply a trinket. I'm sure the families rather have their loved one back.

Ditch the cross for a maple leaf and the award means exactly the same thing.

I find the concepts and nuances of symbolism and cultural heritage to be entirely lost on many of the more hardcore atheists out there. The cross means many things, not all of them exclusively related to Jesus Christ any longer. Yes, it came from that originally, but it has changed, evolved, and been added to as much as the English language has over the years.

When I see the Silver Cross, I don't see Jesus Christ. I see a direct connection to and correlation with those other fallen brethren from past wars like WWI and WWII, the ones lying in fields of white crosses. I see a warrior, a hero, a brother or a sister. I see it as symbolizing a common cultural history and uniting us as a people that, believe it or not, have descended from extremely religious ancestors.

Here in the progressive land of Canada, the cross means far, far more than just something the Romans used to crucify people with. We have become more secular over the years, and our one-time religious holidays and symbols have come along for the ride at times, too. To dismiss it as nothing but a religious symbol is to completely ignore everything else that it symbolizes and means to us as Canadians.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm going to stop and step away we're not going to agree with each other because of the base source of contention.

Have a good night.

[HeartsOfFire]

I find Sonnenberg's memorial to be beautiful, and I think it would be a crying shame if it were ever removed, Christian cross or no.

The extremists on both sides love to sit on their respective sides of the field and engage in an angry shouting match with those on the other side. Both sides believe the other to be inferior, and you know what? They're right.

I can't believe this has become an issue here. I am seriously appaled and ashamed at the antics of some posters I've argued against in the past, and others I've seen around the boards frequently.

Why fling such nastiness against each other like this? Especially just for their beliefs? Because the thread title is suspect?

Judge not a man by his beliefs or his morals, but by his actions or inactions. It is these things alone that make a man. Or woman, as it were.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So your willing to tromp on the rights of people with religious beliefs.

What right? The right to religious expression on public lands? That's not a right in the US.

You know, I find the statues downtown of the two guys playing chess to anger my sensitivities, I demand that they be removed as they depict chess players, and I can't stand chess players.

I feel bad for your clearly grievous mental disorder. No sane person would call chess a religion, and the state isn't therefore advocating (or remaining neutral to) it.

[4X4]

It's about time we canceled Christmas. Those damn Christians forcing us to take time off work and think about Jesus and stuff.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Have a good night.

Same to you.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So your making a leap in interpretation and attaching a religious belief to something that probably doesn't have to do with religion.

Are you trying to say that it must be some wacky coincedence that crosses just happen to mark graves only in christian nations?

If not I apologize but some posters sure seem to be making the stand that
the origins of a cross marking a grave is for memorial puposes only and in now way has/had any christian context is just plain dishonest.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by Chump

The cross is a symbol of sacrifice. These men sacrificed their lives. It really has nothing to do with Chrisitian beliefs being threatened or Chrisitans pushing their beliefs on others.

It was because they were so large they were unavoidable. If they were smaller, or on private land, there wouldn't have been any issue.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Here in the progressive land of Canada, the cross means far, far more than just something the Romans used to crucify people with. We have become more secular over the years, and our one-time religious holidays and symbols have come along for the ride at times, too. To dismiss it as nothing but a religious symbol is to completely ignore everything else that it symbolizes and means to us as Canadians.

Symbols are just visual shorthand for wider concepts.

If you saw a sign with a crescent on it, would you think it was for store selling croissants?

[Locke]

"But what does it all mean?"

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

This is CPS Constable Richard Sonneberg's memorial just off of Deerfoot (incidently sitting on provincial land). As we can see, it contains a cross.

With all due respect to the memory of the departed, why do we have this?

Elaborate roadside memorials are a fairly recent phenomenon (last 20 years or so) Civilian peace officers have died on the job since the concept was established.

The Sonnenberg memorial is totally unnecessary and on public land.

Richard (Rick) was my friend in high school. It is hard for me to look at that picture.

There should be a memorial for him, but I'm not sure the side of the road is the best place for it. I think it is important to his family and colleagues, and community at large.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Not huge, like the crosses in question here.

It's the "unavoidable" determination here that carried the decision. One I agree with. I have no issue with religious expression that is avoidable.

Actually, there is no protection in the US constitution against something that is "unavoidable". That decision was made because of the supposed religious implication alone.

The Sonnenberg memorial was the first thing I thought of when I read this story. The second was the high number of memorials you will find on any Alberta highway, and many streets in the city. The majority of them use crosses.

There are a great many implications about this decision that should be disturbing to people.

Now, obviously the cross has long been associated with Christianity, but I have to ask, when you see a roadside memorial that uses one, do you believe the average person views it in a religious sense? In a society that is growing considerably more agnostic as time goes on, I would say no. I would say that in a secular world, a cross in this context is considered simply a memorial and not a Christian symbol, so I don't accept the relgion angle of the athiest's argument. Unfortunately, the appeals court seems detached from my view of the average person, which is why I made the comment about courts banning things because people are unreasonably offended by them.

Second, it has already been noted that the SCotUS has already held that while goverment cannot favour a specific religion ("separation of church and state"), it also should not be adversarial towards religion either. So, even if you accept a religious connotation in these memorials, the simple fact that they are all shaped as a cross at present is not prima facie evidence that the government is favouring one denomination unless you can show that the family of a deceased trooper has requested that a memorial be shaped like the Star of David or a crescent moon (or another symbol) and been denied.

Third, I think something like this can easily be couched in the freedom of speech argument. It is a non-profit that erected these memorials, not the government itself. Related, people of any faith, even those who have faith in nothing, need to accept that they will never be free of images, symbols and commentary that their faith opposes. In my view, this is blatant, court endorsed, censorship by a group that simply refuses to accept that not everyone thinks and believes as they do.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So your willing to tromp on the rights of people with religious beliefs.

You know, I find the statues downtown of the two guys playing chess to anger my sensitivities, I demand that they be removed as they depict chess players, and I can't stand chess players.

How are the rights of those with religious beliefs being "tromped on"?

Rights are a limited thing, the US Constiution spells out those limits in certain cases, and in this instance I would say that the Constiution has been applied correctly. Whether or not the end result is correct is a different discussion, but under current law I'd say this result is pretty spot on.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

What if the crosses were upside down?

I think this past is actually a fair illustration of my intended point: An upside down cross would utterly fail to communicate the intended symbolic message, because it is such a peculiar symbol that it practically holds no meaning whatsoever for most of the Western world.

I will repeat: A cross at the side of a road is a symbol whose meaning is abundantly clear. Part of the meaning inherent in a symbol is its environment or location, and in this context I tend to think that it is not commonly understood to be religious.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by 4X4

It's about time we canceled Christmas. Those damn Christians forcing us to take time off work and think about Jesus and stuff.

I'm absolutely not kidding when I say that when my family gets together for Christmas, our prayer is right out of the episode of the Simpsons whem Mr. Burns is running for gov.

Dear God,

We paid for all this food ourselves, so thanks for nothing.

Amen



When myself, brother, and sister were kids it would drive my parents crazy, and now we're all in our mid 20's and moved out when we visit for xmas dinner and sit down at the table my Dad even says "alright...who's saying it?"

[Weiser Wonder]

Some people need better things to do in my opinion. Why spend the time challenging every use of religious symbols in American society? Can't we be flexible enough to realize that using crosses as a memorial isn't hurting anyone? I'm against funding of religious institutions by the government, government sponsored religion, and am for separation of church and state. But, spend money fighting creationism in schools, don't waste everyone's time with this.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by 4X4

It's about time we canceled Christmas. Those damn Christians forcing us to take time off work and think about Jesus and stuff.

You think about Jesus during Xmas? I thought most people just went to the mall and fought with their families.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

What right? The right to religious expression on public lands? That's not a right in the US.



I feel bad for your clearly grievous mental disorder. No sane person would call chess a religion, and the state isn't therefore advocating (or remaining neutral to) it.

Wow

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

The cross is only a symbol of sacrifice to those who believe in god. To many the cross is a symbol of persecution and intolerance.

Its true, we should consider the feelings of living survivors of the Salem witch trials.