California's Prop 8 Overturned

[firebug]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

But why discriminate and think you need to save one group from making a terrible decision like living in Edmonton? If it's morally right to restrict gays from living in Edmonton, the same logic should apply and it would be morally right to restrict straight people from living in Edmonton too.

If, morally, we shouldn't let anyone live there, lets just bulldoze Edmonton and be done with all that nonsense.

Our social construct has many instances of limiting rights which will ultimately end up in providing greater benefits to all.

In fact, that is the whole thesis behind investing. Sacrifice consumption today for increased consumption at some point in the future (you are rewarded for your sacrifice because it benefits society at large).

And, if you read P12's original post, essentially he does recommend the bulldozing of Edmonton.

~bug

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by valo403

I think that's generally what P12's point is, the whole instiution is antiquated and restrictive.

Perhaps. I haven't read all of his posts - some of them are a bit long winded and don't seem to go anywhere so I don't bother. If you're right, then he's making at least some level of sense. However, he seems to state that homosexuals are not equipped to deal with marriage while heterosexuals are. In his own words:

There is a variety of empirical sources that show that homosexuals, especially males, do not view monogamy in the same way that heterosexuals do. That is to say, that most homosexuals believe that being married does not mean that you must exclusively have sex with that one person.

To me, that reads as if he believes that hetero marriage is fine but homo marriage is not.

Originally Posted by valo403

And I fully back the bulldozing of Edmonton, where do I sign up?

Build your own killdozer!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by firebug

In fact, that is the whole thesis behind investing. Sacrifice consumption today for increased consumption at some point in the future (you are rewarded for your sacrifice because it benefits society at large).

You have the option to invest. It's not prohibited, nor is it mandatory. You have the option to decide what's best for you and have to weigh the pros and cons for yourself. That is where the liberty of the whole thing comes into play.
Further, rules of being allowed to invest are not based on race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

[SeeBass]

I remember watching a story about a decorated Vietnam war hero that was discovered to be gay so he was kicked out of the US military. He killed himself shortly after and his tombstone reads...

"Here lies ______ he was a hero for killing a man but a coward for loving one"

I saw that report maybe 20 years ago and I have never forgotten that line.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

I'm not familiar with the 9th circuit but I was assuming they will uphold the lower courts ruling. A pretty grand assumption I realize, but the 9th circuit would have to be extremely conservative to overturn. Kennedy is a wildcard, admittedly, but I think his interpretation of the equal protection clause is broad enough that I'd be very surprised if he didn't vote with the liberal faction.

The 9th Circuit is a slam dunk for Prop 8 opponents. Granted, the 9th Circuit is the more bizarre and backwards Court outside of Louisiana, so who knows.

[etdpratt]

Originally Posted by valo403

Two things,

1. Regardless of whether or not "under God" and other God references appear in US government oaths and other sources it is a nation very clearly founded on the notion of seperation between church and state. Any argument against gay marriage in the US based on religious grounds completely misses the point and shows a pretty obvious inability to understand the actual issues at play.

2. I don't see any intolerance towards Mormons, I see people referencing the actions of the Mormon church. Since when is pointing to actual events and actual actions intolerance?

Just to comment on your points:

1. Freedom of speech is the right of every person, religion, or any other organization in a democracy. If I think an action goes against what I believe, I have every right as a citizen to organize petition and express my views. These aren't politicians in the mormon church who control the creation of laws that are supporting prop 8, these are religious individuals that are expressing their opinion and beliefs and have every right to do so.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by etdpratt

I am not a mormon, but I wanted to look at the issue from their perspective. I have several mormon buddies that are great individuals.

If you were to believe that God shunned Gay marriage, which almost every religion on earth does, do you think that you have the right to stand up for those principles?

If you also believed that doing drugs is wrong before God, would you be considered intolerant if you opposed laws that would legalize the use of them?

I have talked with these mormon friends on occasion about this issue because I too was a little upset by the news, and from what I have taken from these conversations is that they believe that God doesn't support Gay marriage, just like he doesn't support a lot of other things like pornography, drugs, etc. If gay marriage becomes law, they will accept that, but to them they are just trying to uphold certain values that they feel should exist under a government that claims to be nation "under God." This is why my buddies said that they have no problem with homosexuals being together, but they are against a law that calls it an ok thing.

A lot of the comments that have been made in this thread show complete intolerance for the mormons, which is exactly what they are being accused of doing. You obviously don't have to agree with them, especially if you are one that doesn't believe in God or believes that God is ok with gay marriage, but it is a good thing to understand where the arguments from the other side are coming from.

I understand their reasoning behind not support gay marriage from a religious perspective, but what they're trying to do is force their religious viewpoint onto everyone else.

We're not 'one nation under God.' The government is supposed to be 100% secular.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Azure

I understand their reasoning behind not support gay marriage from a religious perspective, but what they're trying to do is force their religious viewpoint onto everyone else.

We're not 'one nation under God.' The government is supposed to be 100% secular.

Says who?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

Says who?

Says me and anyone else that believes in the separation of church and state.

The execution of all government actions should be done without the influence of any religious viewpoint.

[etdpratt]

Originally Posted by Thor

Sure, but we should then ask for the Mormon church to no longer be tax exempt when it puts so much money into fighting a proposition in other states. We can also take note of how gay mormon's have the highest suicide rates in the country. We can look at how the 'nice mormons' shun and push out children that come out of the closet.

Belief has to be countered with reason, because if we didn't have people change or soften their beliefs then the mormon church wouldn't have started to allow blacks into their church in 1978.

Yeah my favorite parts of the bible is about drugs and porn being wrong, great passages.

As for your buddies saying they have no problem, well they are lying to you. They might be nice, be friends with them and good ones too. But if they hold to their faith they know those people are condemned to hell, that they are not born this way but 'chose it' or live perverted lives.

Right, how rude of me to call mormons out on their outdated belief that homosexuality is evil, a choice and that the only family is one that has a man and a woman at the helm.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean they have the right to impose their beliefs on others, which is what they did in prop 8. Go ahead and believe your silliness but don't let your choice in religion force people who have no choice in their sexuality to live by YOUR ideology.

You think those angry at the mormons and other religions don't know where they are coming from? Seriously, its not hard to figure out, considering most here for equal marriage rights are either religious or formerly religious people.

There are simply times when you can't play the 'you are being mean to mormons' card when they just helped push back the rights of an entire group based on their backwards belief system.

Once a religious group pushes political agenda all people of a free nation should be angry, but in America the idea of separation from church and state is really background noise in modern politics. Sadly

1. Ok first, blacks were allowed in the mormon church before 1978. Check your facts. There were positions within the church which they couldn't hold.

2. Second, where did you get those facts about gay mormons and their suicide rate? From my research online I have seen many sources that list 1. Protestant 2. Catholics with the lowest suicide rate with Jews.

3. I know for a fact that the mormon church has never said that Gay people are born straight. I challenge you to support your wild claims.

4. "Yeah my favorite parts of the bible is about drugs and porn being wrong, great passages. " ??? --I am not understanding what you are trying to say with this.

5. You believe that their belief system is old an outdated. That is entirely your opinion and not fact because for them and other Christian believers, God doesn't change.

6. The mormon church was at the head of prop 8 but many other Christian religions were in full support, including the Catholics and Protestants. This isn't Mormons against Homosexuals.

7. "You say the church is imposing or trying to force their beliefs." This is a democracy, and they are voting on this issue. They are not forcing anybody to do anything.

[etdpratt]

Originally Posted by Azure

I understand their reasoning behind not support gay marriage from a religious perspective, but what they're trying to do is force their religious viewpoint onto everyone else.

We're not 'one nation under God.' The government is supposed to be 100% secular.

It is in the US Pledge of Allegience, but I do understand where you are coming from. As I said before, I understand both sides of the argument.

[J pold]

Originally Posted by etdpratt

1. Ok first, blacks were allowed in the mormon church before 1978. Check your facts. There were positions within the church which they couldn't hold.

Yeah those positions that is according to the Church, necessary to reach any form of salvation, such as Priesthoods, sealings, and temple endowments. Blacks where treated as second class citizens within the organization of the Mormon Church, because the churches leaders believed that they came from the lineage of Cain, who was cursed with ‘black skin’ for the murder of his brother. What’s worse is that those beliefs are still taught and followed today. Consider what your perception of a person if you where taught that the reason their skin is the color it is, was due to the fact that they are cursed.

3. I know for a fact that the mormon church has never said that Gay people are born straight. I challenge you to support your wild claims.

They may have never explicitly stated it in a public form, but from my personal experience, having been raised in the Mormon Church, this is what most members believe and is what is taught to children.

[photon]

Originally Posted by etdpratt

If I think an action goes against what I believe, I have every right as a citizen to organize petition and express my views.

No one's saying otherwise. And others also have a right to criticize and oppose those views.

What isn't right is trying to impose those views on others. Gay marriage proponents aren't trying to impose their views on others; they aren't making the people against gay marriage get gay married.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by etdpratt

Just to comment on your points:

1. Freedom of speech is the right of every person, religion, or any other organization in a democracy. If I think an action goes against what I believe, I have every right as a citizen to organize petition and express my views. These aren't politicians in the mormon church who control the creation of laws that are supporting prop 8, these are religious individuals that are expressing their opinion and beliefs and have every right to do so.

And where exactly has anyone disputed that? You have every right to voice your opinion, but the US Constitution dictates that religious beliefs can not be the basis for imposing laws upon someone or denying rights to someone. Like I said, the presence of the word God in the pledge of allegiance means sweet F all in this debate, a fact that seems to escape a large percentage of the people against gay marriage.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Azure

You just blew Reggie's mind.

Not really.

Just makes Mormons "nicer" than Muslims, who execute those who are different.

[photon]

Originally Posted by J pold

They may have never explicitly stated it in a public form, but from my personal experience, having been raised in the Mormon Church, this is what most members believe and is what is taught to children.

They don't do anything about it though do they? As long as one lives the law of chastity having homosexual desires isn't in itself a sin, at least that's the official position if I recall.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by etdpratt

It is in the US Pledge of Allegience, but I do understand where you are coming from. As I said before, I understand both sides of the argument.

The Pledge of Alegiance holds no legal weight, it's just a tradition.

The Founding Fathers of the U.S. specifically called out the union as a mandatory separation of church and state, so that no religious entity could force their views on anybody else, especially minorities.
For this very specific reason, laws in the U.S. should never, ever have any kind of religous overtones or undertones

[EddyBeers]

I find it interesting that you know so much about the Mormon Church, yet you are definitely not Mormon, as per your post on an earlier page.

Originally Posted by etdpratt

1. Ok first, blacks were allowed in the mormon church before 1978. Check your facts. There were positions within the church which they couldn't hold.

- Like was said earlier, you could be black and in the mormon church, you just could not be a priest or have a celestial marriage. The Church had a revelation in 1978 right around the same time that the US Government was reviewing their tax exempt status. The Lord certainly works in mysterious ways.

Originally Posted by etdpratt

3. I know for a fact that the mormon church has never said that Gay people are born straight. I challenge you to support your wild claims.

""The unholy transgression of homosexuality is either rapidly growing or tolerance is giving it wider publicity. … The Lord condemns and forbids this practice....'God made me that way,' some say, as they rationalize and excuse themselves...'I can’t help it,' they add. This is blasphemy. Is man not made in the image of God, and does he think God to be 'that way'?"
-President Kimball, 1981
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_lds2.htm

Unless you can tell me that when he says it is blasphemy that gays say they were made that way does not mean that gay people are born straight, I would assume that it is clear that the President of the Mormon Church is stating that humans are born straight, otherwise you would have to imply that he thinks God might swing both ways?

Originally Posted by etdpratt

5. You believe that their belief system is old an outdated. That is entirely your opinion and not fact because for them and other Christian believers, God doesn't change.

God does change. In terms of the specific Mormon example why do you think that the following things changed within the Church after Joseph Smith received his revelation:

1) Black's being allowed to become priests and obtain celestial marriage;
2) Chewing Tobacco being banned by the church;
3) Plural marriage being outlawed;

Amongst many other changes to the doctrine. That is why you can have revelations, so that the doctrine can consistently change because God is always changing, or so one would have to presume otherwise the initial revelations in the 1830's should have stood the test of time.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by etdpratt

1. Ok first, blacks were allowed in the mormon church before 1978. Check your facts. There were positions within the church which they couldn't hold.

Stand corrected, but certainly the point remains. They held a belief, they changed it, thus my point about gay rights.

2. Second, where did you get those facts about gay mormons and their suicide rate? From my research online I have seen many sources that list 1. Protestant 2. Catholics with the lowest suicide rate with Jews.

You could find some links from this page of mormons looking to have their church treat gay's better. http://www.ldsapology.org/LDSSuicides.htm

3. I know for a fact that the mormon church has never said that Gay people are born straight. I challenge you to support your wild claims.

One quote has already been put up, you could also watch:

http://www.mormonproposition.com/

5. You believe that their belief system is old an outdated. That is entirely your opinion and not fact because for them and other Christian believers, God doesn't change.

Yes I believe their beliefs are old and outdated. Not just my opinion, most Christians laugh at mormon beliefs; guess thats intolerant Christians right? Not to mention Christianity, Islam, Mormonism and all religion change, they change even major beliefs over time as society evolves. Sorry, God does change, he changes his mind a lot.

6. The mormon church was at the head of prop 8 but many other Christian religions were in full support, including the Catholics and Protestants. This isn't Mormons against Homosexuals.

Yep, but I'm not only mad at the Mormon church, I'm mad at all those who voted with them. However the mormon elders abused their powers and pushed regular mormons into action, stating this was a order from god to go and donate large sums of money and time to defeating this bill. You did not see anything like that from other mainstream groups, at least on the money and volunteer side of this.

If the Mormon church wants to put money into political movements like this, let them then pay taxes, otherwise stay out of it and let individuals each decide not have a group of elders tell them what to do and think; oh and give money to.

7. "You say the church is imposing or trying to force their beliefs." This is a democracy, and they are voting on this issue. They are not forcing anybody to do anything.

They are forcing their beliefs unto others. Simple. The majority isn't always right, this is why we have constitutions to protect minorities and ensure the majority can't bully a minority within the law.

Its a choice to believe in God, its not a choice to be gay.

[CaptainCrunch]

I might have missed it, but I assume that this will eventually end up being fought over in Federal Supreme Court.

If the reversal of the ban is held up, does that mean that the Supreme Court can dictate that Gay Marriage cannot be banned in the U.S.?