Wikileaks.org -- Tens of thousands of Afghan war docs leaked

[CaptainCrunch]

Problem is that I downloaded the entire 75 mb file right to my hard drive, so in terms of providing links I can't, because I downloaded it right off of Wikileaks.

[CaptainCrunch]

Just to add on, the document is spit into years, then within moths, then within what amounts to 15 to 20 documents that take my computer about 5 minutes to uncompress or open. So I will say that I'm about 4 months into 2004, I doubt that I'll ever get through to the last year.

[jammies]

I still think it's incredibly stupid to have real names in this kind of documentation in the first place. Yes, wikileaks should have obscured the names, but if some guy running a website can obtain this information (sympathetic source or not), foreign intelligence services probably have a good shot at getting it as well.

[Azure]

The Taliban, a radical Islamic militia in Afghanistan, announced its gratitude to Wikileaks for the release and vowed to hunt down those revealed in the documents to be collaborating with the U.S. It appears that they have now made good on that threat.

Khalifa Abdullah, a tribal elder, was removed from his home in Monar village, in Kandahar province’s embattled Arghandab district, by gunmen. He was then executed.

At the same time, 70 other tribal elders received death threats warning them that the Taliban had obtained reason to believe they were collaborating with the U.S. One such threat is signed by Abdul Rauf Khadim, a senior Taliban official who was imprisoned in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. When the Cuban prison was partially shut down by President Obama Khadim was transferred to Afghan custody in Kabul, where he subsequently escaped.

http://www.dailytech.com/Taliban+Mur...ticle19250.htm

Clap, clap, clap.

We feel confident. The material is seven months old; we reviewed it extensively. We held back 15,000 documents that we felt needed further review because the type of classifications they had. We've been publishing for four years a range of material that has caused the changing of constitutions and the removal of governments, but there's never been a case that we are aware of that has resulted in the personal injury of anyone. - Julian Assange

[CaptainCrunch]

No matter what he says, this death and any others are on his head.

[Flash Walken]

That is pretty rich.

Guy reports on documents in a war-zone from a largely unsupported military excursion, in the process raising the profile of civilian and 'friendly fire' incidents, and the blood is then on his hands?

Talk about shooting the messenger...

edit:

A guy who was in custody and then was let back into the wild is now threatening tribal elders (I am sure this is a brand spanking new tactic only used because of the leaks...) and this is some how Julian Assange's fault?

That is some interesting logic...

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That is pretty rich.

Guy reports on documents in a war-zone from a largely unsupported military excursion, in the process raising the profile of civilian and 'friendly fire' incidents, and the blood is then on his hands?

Talk about shooting the messenger...

Nobody would be shooting the messanger if he removed the names. Seems pretty damn simple to to me. Not rich, digusting

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jammies

I still think it's incredibly stupid to have real names in this kind of documentation in the first place. Yes, wikileaks should have obscured the names, but if some guy running a website can obtain this information (sympathetic source or not), foreign intelligence services probably have a good shot at getting it as well.

Particularly when it is clear that our Afghan 'allies' who have had access to this for years are riddled with Taliban, then there are the wack job muslim american and brits (or covert peaceniks) within the armed forces, I suspect the Taliban are actually pissed this happened as now the military might start to take security concerns seriously.

[Flash Walken]

Boy, if only Robert Novak had gotten this kind of scrutiny...

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That is pretty rich.

Guy reports on documents in a war-zone from a largely unsupported military excursion, in the process raising the profile of civilian and 'friendly fire' incidents, and the blood is then on his hands?

Talk about shooting the messenger...

edit:

A guy who was in custody and then was let back into the wild is now threatening tribal elders (I am sure this is a brand spanking new tactic only used because of the leaks...) and this is some how Julian Assange's fault?

That is some interesting logic...

He let the names for these informants and friendlies remain in the documentation, the blood is absolutely on his hands.

The guy was in Gitmo and he was released under the promise by Obama to close it down and transfered to Afghan custody where he escaped, I get that.

But that fact that Wikileaks allowed those names to remain in those documents has lead directly to the death of an informant.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Particularly when it is clear that our Afghan 'allies' who have had access to this for years are riddled with Taliban, then there are the wack job muslim american and brits (or covert peaceniks) within the armed forces, I suspect the Taliban are actually pissed this happened as now the military might start to take security concerns seriously.

Weird logic, do you know for sure that the Afghan government had access to the war diaries, or all classified U.S. documentation.

Did the American's share the names of all of their confidential sources with the Afghan government at a level where Taliban "spies" could gain access to it.

did the Afghan government or the American government put these names out on a public forum? Not at all, but Wikileaks sure did.

The soldier that is under investigation just saw his troubles increase a million fold, but I doubt that the founder of Wikileaks is going to lift a finger to save him.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

He let the names for these informants and friendlies remain in the documentation, the blood is absolutely on his hands.

The guy was in Gitmo and he was released under the promise by Obama to close it down and transfered to Afghan custody where he escaped, I get that.

But that fact that Wikileaks allowed those names to remain in those documents has lead directly to the death of an informant.

I think your outrage is misplaced.

A little bit of relativism, please.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Most of what the Taliban did and will do again is pretty much how Afghans would run the country if they were in charge, Khazi's views on women are no different from the Taliban.

The Taliban are not some small group of Afghan wack jobs, philosophically they pretty much represent what most Afghans and Waziris believe, even the ones that are opposed to them.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

it is foolish to believe that most afghans arn't sympathetic to the Talibans fundemental view of Islam.

This is absolutely not true. There was partying in the streets after the Taliban were flushed out of Kabul, with freshly shaven men and people listening to music in the streets (Shaving and music were forbidden by the Taliban).

Anyone with any secular education in Afganistan is very opposed to the Taliban. Illustrations were banned, so people studying to be medical proffessionals, for example, had to learn about anatomy from text only books.

Most Taliban soldiers would gladly put their guns down. The only reason they picked them up was because they had no other way to provide for their families.

Rich Saudi's have been pumping money into remote rural Pakistan/Afghanistan for years to build mosques and Madrasas. The Madrasas are pretty much Taliban academies where you take completely uneducated children and teach them a cirriculum which is basically propaganda class to teach you to hate the west and weapons training. They are factories that take disadvantaged children and turn them into brain washed soldiers.

The Central Asia Insittute is an organization that has been building secular schools in these areas (with very strict requirements for the enrollment of girls as the Taliban ban the education of girls) and the American founder has recieved incredible support from local leaders in Afghanistan and Pakistan for his cause. There have been a few of the wingnut fundamentalist religious leaders that have tried to leverage Islamic law to get him removed from Pakistan but they high Islamic courts in Iran have even stated that they support his work.

Your average Muslim is not a woman hating nut job. These guys are by far in the minority, but they are powerful and have large regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan by the nuts and are breeding fear/hate at an alarming pace.

We can bomb the crap out of the Taliban, but if we are doing nothing to help the battered civilians we are leaving behind on the ground with health care, education and economic development, this war is for nothing and another will soon follow.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think your outrage is misplaced.

A little bit of relativism, please.

In your opinion Flash, in my opinion its focusing right where it should be.

The guy was careless with other peoples lives.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In your opinion Flash, in my opinion its focusing right where it should be.

The guy was careless with other peoples lives.

I understand your opinion of war, i've read it, and largely agree with it, in other threads.

What I don't understand is, in an invasion that has lasted the better part of a decade that has seen countless civilian deaths from disgusting tactics and circumstances used by both sides, your outrage is over a guy who published previously unreported (and some potentially fabricated instances) of conduct, misconduct, misappropriation and fraud, amongst other things that perhaps lead to the death of one man.

Your relativism is not there in this argument, and this is nothing at all personal.

Heck, the guy who apparently targeted him was someone who was previously in custody. I've seen you rail on enough in other threads about Canada's judicial system to know this relativism is there in other circumstances.

If you ask me, this is just a further indictment to a lot of the information contained in those documents. The military is being careless with lives here, to an infinite extent more than Assange could dream of.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Boy, if only Robert Novak had gotten this kind of scrutiny...

He did.

Of course, Ms. Plain was not executed either.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I understand your opinion of war, i've read it, and largely agree with it, in other threads.

What I don't understand is, in an invasion that has lasted the better part of a decade that has seen countless civilian deaths from disgusting tactics and circumstances used by both sides, your outrage is over a guy who published previously unreported (and some potentially fabricated instances) of conduct, misconduct, misappropriation and fraud, amongst other things that perhaps lead to the death of one man.

Your relativism is not there in this argument, and this is nothing at all personal.

Heck, the guy who apparently targeted him was someone who was previously in custody. I've seen you rail on enough in other threads about Canada's judicial system to know this relativism is there in other circumstances.

If you ask me, this is just a further indictment to a lot of the information contained in those documents. The military is being careless with lives here, to an infinite extent more than Assange could dream of.

Captain can speak for himself, but how do you know that this is where all his outrage lies? It certainly is the most relevant portion of his outrage to this thread.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I understand your opinion of war, i've read it, and largely agree with it, in other threads.

What I don't understand is, in an invasion that has lasted the better part of a decade that has seen countless civilian deaths from disgusting tactics and circumstances used by both sides, your outrage is over a guy who published previously unreported (and some potentially fabricated instances) of conduct, misconduct, misappropriation and fraud, amongst other things that perhaps lead to the death of one man.

I've made it a point in the past and as I review these documents that there is a seperation between civilian deaths and the public publication of the names of informatants and civilians in Afghanistan working for the NATO forces or the Afghan government.

I've said in that past that civilian casualties are a tragic by product of war.

But there are two things that come to mind.

I don't see anywhere in the rules of engagement that the military is to effectively and intentionally target civillians. The intent of the militaries over there is to try to preserve lives and not take them.

By releasing these documents with little care and consideration for the lives that it effects is callous, cold and to me criminal. leaking or releasing classified documents is also a crime.

I need to ask again, if anyone can show me where the names of these informants were released on purpose or by accident by the allies or the Afghan government?

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Your relativism is not there in this argument, and this is nothing at all personal.

Heck, the guy who apparently targeted him was someone who was previously in custody. I've seen you rail on enough in other threads about Canada's judicial system to know this relativism is there in other circumstances.

If you ask me, this is just a further indictment to a lot of the information contained in those documents. The military is being careless with lives here, to an infinite extent more than Assange could dream of.

The fact that the Taliban leader was in hand and transferred back to Afghanistan to me was a bad mistake. The next mistake was putting him back in the hands of the Afghans who have shown themselves to be fairly incompetant in policing and security. While I understand that closing down the prison system in Cuba was a political decision and in a lot of ways a improper one its something that we have to live with.

Have there been far to many civilian deaths, absolutely, but is that due to the general rules of engagment? Probably not.

The difference here is that Assange has publically published a death list and left those names available, when the right thing to do when he realized that mistake would have been to take the documents down until he could filter them.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I've said in that past that civilian casualties are a tragic by product of war.

If I'm reading this right, I think that above point is where you and some of the other posters (like myself) diverge.

I think these documents highlight the fact that we're not really there for a "War" in the sense that none of us can clearly articulate the cause, rationalize appropriate methods to address the cause, and identify a resolution. And given additional information highlighted by these documents, it makes even less sense to inflict civilian casualties in pursuit of whatever "it" is.

Barring clear information about what the "War" is for at this point, I don't consider Afghanistan to be much of a war. Nor can I articulate a reasonable outcome. Therefore, the old caveat that "civilian casualties are a tragic by product of war" rings hollow.

[Flash Walken]

I need to ask again, if anyone can show me where the names of these informants were released on purpose or by accident by the allies or the Afghan government?

Come on, Cap'n. You reference below the incompetence of the Afghan government apparatus, have talked openly about Pakistan and the dual nature of the ISI, etc. etc.

Do you really think that state secrets mean the same thing here as they do there? I don't really care if the afghans are reportedly corrupt as a result of this leak, because anyone with half a brain knew it already. It only serves to highly the incompetence of this 'war' on our end.

From where we both sit, it is largely impossible for us, even with the people we know on the ground there, to make any kind of commentary about that information. Frankly, you'd have to be incredibly naive to think it isn't already happening. I don't think that describes you.

The fact that the Taliban leader was in hand and transferred back to Afghanistan to me was a bad mistake. The next mistake was putting him back in the hands of the Afghans who have shown themselves to be fairly incompetant in policing and security. While I understand that closing down the prison system in Cuba was a political decision and in a lot of ways a improper one its something that we have to live with.

Have there been far to many civilian deaths, absolutely, but is that due to the general rules of engagment? Probably not.

The difference here is that Assange has publically published a death list and left those names available, when the right thing to do when he realized that mistake would have been to take the documents down until he could filter them.

I don't understand how your expected burden of anonymity only applies to him. This is hardly the first time an asset will be burned on the ground because of an intelligence failure. More to that point, however ill you think the political motivations for this leak may be, surely you can appreciate that this is probably one of the most least self-serving of these events. The Bob Novak reference being one of the most straight forward examples.

Being that you are a former soldier, I find your defense of this both odd and familiar. I am not at all insinuating you are not interested in the same thing, but these documents highlight to me the extreme indifference politicians in this country, and the citizens by extension, have for the lives of people in our military. For someone who believes in the promotion of a fairly large military apparatus, I find this misappropriation of military resources and lives to be deplorable.

Again, just for clarification, there are no personal intonations meant in this post.