Wikileaks.org -- Tens of thousands of Afghan war docs leaked

[Cliche]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/...llegation.html

Rick Hillier debunks some of the documents in the wikileaks.

"When I was a commander on operations, we always had a rule — first reports are wrong, and the second reports are wrong and the third reports are wrong," Hillier said.

"Only after that do you start to get the validity and the truth [to] come out."

[mikey_the_redneck]

LOL at the idiots who think America cares about womens rights in Afghanistan.

You know, Saudi Arabia still has womens rights issues, but it's all okay because the Bush dynasty is all buddy buddy with the Saudi royal family.

[Itse]

Bad things happen in a war, but it does matter how often and what kind.

As things are, the anecdotal evidence of foreign troops doing what their not supposed to (as noted in the documents at hand) keeps mounting up, while the evidence of lasting achievements stays small.

Yes, that's a fair comparison, because casualties of war are also permanent. If there are no longterm benefits, then the casualties are without justification.

(EDIT: Note that I'm not saying that longterm benefits could not appear later on, in which case a debate about justification could be started. What I'm saying is that as long as there is no evidence that the goals will or can be reached, there is no point in arguing about whether or not the goals are worth the damage. The war being so long, the argument of "it will all be worth it in the end" is already weak and keeps getting weaker every day. Basicly, the more the casualties pile up, the bigger the reward should be. At some point you have to accept that it's impossible to achieve a goal that's significant enough. Personally I think that time was years ago...)

As the most basic example of a longterm goal that's not coming any closer, casualties to foreign troops keep going up, and thus there is no real evidence of the Taleban getting weaker, which should be one of the primary goals.

It doesn't matter how many enemies are killed, if it doesn't weaken their ability to strike back.

Afghanistan is already the longest war in US history, yet they haven't even figured out a way to know who the enemy is. They keep losing more and more troops. It's obvious the foreign troops will lose this war, and it's sad that some continue to argue for it.

You have to keep in mind; most arguments against stopping the war could have been made about Vietnam in 1975. I'm guessing most agree it's a good thing those arguments didn't win.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

LOL at the idiots who think America cares about womens rights in Afghanistan.

You know, Saudi Arabia still has womens rights issues, but it's all okay because the Bush dynasty is all buddy buddy with the Saudi royal family.

Has nothing to do with Bush, and everything to do with the fact that Saudi Arabia has oil, and the US loves/needs oil.

[Azure]

The same arguments were also made in Iraq around 2007.

And the US managed to get things turned around. Granted, Afghanistan, due to the influence from Pakistan is a different cup of tea, but I still believe that to a point some sort of stability can be reached.

But it may require certain things a lot of people have a problem with. Like changing the rules of engagement to favor the allied troops.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Azure

The same arguments were also made in Iraq around 2007.

True, although the casualties there had remained relatively constant.

Also
- I think it's too early to claim Iraq a success
- The way to the quieting down was pretty much the Shia victory over the Sunnis, most importantly in Baghdad. To start with there is no similar civil war going on in Afghanistan, and secondly the civil war included a lot of ethnic cleansing.

Make what you will of these points, I'm not trying to sell them as anything definitive.

[HPLovecraft]

President says nothing new in the reports, and not to worry about them.

Sorry, guys -- you lose.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Cliche

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/...llegation.html

Rick Hillier debunks some of the documents in the wikileaks.

That's not really debunking anything. Assange (Wikileaks founder) said in his press release these are first hand accounts, and to read them with common sense -- they will not always be accurate, and some may be out-right fabrications by men and women on the ground. As with anything, don't take it as complete fact.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Itse

True, although the casualties there had remained relatively constant.

Also
- I think it's too early to claim Iraq a success
- The way to the quieting down was pretty much the Shia victory over the Sunnis, most importantly in Baghdad. To start with there is no similar civil war going on in Afghanistan, and secondly the civil war included a lot of ethnic cleansing.

Make what you will of these points, I'm not trying to sell them as anything definitive.

Agreed. I do believe that a change in direction in US policy helped stop/resolve the Shia/Sunni conflict.

I just don't think we've seriously tried to fix things in Afghanistan. Spent 2 years there after 9/11, then ran off into Iraq, and until this past year, there was no serious consideration given to active policy there and what direction the country was going.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Azure

The same arguments were also made in Iraq around 2007.

And the US managed to get things turned around.

Actually, Iraq is going downhill as well.

Bombings are escalating (40 killed today) and al-Maliki is holding the parliament hostage.

That hasn't stopped the politicians from continuing to chant the "surge has worked" mantra on tv.

[afc wimbledon]

The US army has been bled dry of equipment, the countries broke, its just a waiting game in Iraq now, everyone knows they are leaving so the militias are building up forces and allies for the civil war that will signal the end of the occupation.

[worth]

I haven't read this whole thread, and I don't really want to jump into the discussion. I'm not going to talk about the validity of the war, rather I just wanted to add a bit about the soldier himself. Forgive me if i'm a bit off topic.

As a former soldier, and one who knows many who have participated in the war and currently serve, I can say the following:

1. If you have applied for a combat arms position in the Regular Force in the past 8 years, you are essentially applying for combat in a war zone. No one becomes a rifleman with the illusion of not deploying to Afghanistan.

2. The Infantry is full. The CF is not accepting any new recruits to the infantry because the regiments are full and there is no budget to increase the amount of troops. It is easy to draw the conclusion that many people want to be involved in this war regardless of the moral issues surrouonding it.

3. All reservists in Afghanistan willingly volunteered to serve there. The government can not deploy reservists like they can the regular force regiments.

4. Soldiers want war. That is their purpose. They have been trained and taught how to carry out operations. By entering into combat, they are doing their job, and it is the culmination of their training and something you can not experience anywhere else.

5. I can say with certainty, the Canadian contingent of combat arms deployed to Afghanistan are there because they want to be there. There is a very different situation down in the US, but I don't want to get into that.

On a personal note, I very much dislike the cries to "bring our troops home" on the basis that they are dying. Every soldier over there knows the dangers. They are volunteers and are over there because they want to be. We should not pull soldiers out based on the fact that they are dying. If it is decided the war is wrong or unjust, then pull them out. But do not use them as a pawn to get a point across and do not put words in their mouth.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by worth

I haven't read this whole thread, and I don't really want to jump into the discussion. I'm not going to talk about the validity of the war, rather I just wanted to add a bit about the soldier himself. Forgive me if i'm a bit off topic.

As a former soldier, and one who knows many who have participated in the war and currently serve, I can say the following:

1. If you have applied for a combat arms position in the Regular Force in the past 8 years, you are essentially applying for combat in a war zone. No one becomes a rifleman with the illusion of not deploying to Afghanistan.

2. The Infantry is full. The CF is not accepting any new recruits to the infantry because the regiments are full and there is no budget to increase the amount of troops. It is easy to draw the conclusion that many people want to be involved in this war regardless of the moral issues surrouonding it.

3. All reservists in Afghanistan willingly volunteered to serve there. The government can not deploy reservists like they can the regular force regiments.

4. Soldiers want war. That is their purpose. They have been trained and taught how to carry out operations. By entering into combat, they are doing their job, and it is the culmination of their training and something you can not experience anywhere else.

5. I can say with certainty, the Canadian contingent of combat arms deployed to Afghanistan are there because they want to be there. There is a very different situation down in the US, but I don't want to get into that.

On a personal note, I very much dislike the cries to "bring our troops home" on the basis that they are dying. Every soldier over there knows the dangers. They are volunteers and are over there because they want to be. We should not pull soldiers out based on the fact that they are dying. If it is decided the war is wrong or unjust, then pull them out. But do not use them as a pawn to get a point across and do not put words in their mouth.

My foster son will deploy with the PPCLI in a few months and I agree, he and his buddies want to go.

None the less it's a pointless stupid conflict where the Taliban are if anything the 'good guys' not because they aren't murdering thugs, they are all murdering thugs, but the Taliban so far is the only side that has shown any ability to run the country and it is foolish to believe that most afghans arn't sympathetic to the Talibans fundemental view of Islam.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My foster son will deploy with the PPCLI in a few months and I agree, he and his buddies want to go.

None the less it's a pointless stupid conflict where the Taliban are if anything the 'good guys' not because they aren't murdering thugs, they are all murdering thugs, but the Taliban so far is the only side that has shown any ability to run the country and it is foolish to believe that most afghans arn't sympathetic to the Talibans fundemental view of Islam.

Oh the moral relativism brings tears to my eyes.

[afc wimbledon]

there's no reletivism to it, just like every other US imperial war we are supporting, in the imortal words of LBJ 'our son of a bitch'.

This has 2 Consequences first there will be no difference for the average Afghan whoever wins, they will still live in a brutal medieval state with little or no rights or access to justice, education or anything else outside of the tribal mores they have lived with for 500 years and second, because of this, all casualties, military and civilian are a pointless waste.

[jayswin]

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My foster son will deploy with the PPCLI in a few months and I agree, he and his buddies want to go.

None the less it's a pointless stupid conflict where the Taliban are if anything the 'good guys' not because they aren't murdering thugs, they are all murdering thugs, but the Taliban so far is the only side that has shown any ability to run the country and it is foolish to believe that most afghans arn't sympathetic to the Talibans fundemental view of Islam.

Good luck to your foster son, I hope for every bit of safety that he can get.

I disagree with your second point though. Talking to friends of mine who have done multiple tours. The average Joe Afghan citizen see's the Taliban for what it is and hate them for it. However the Taliban are effective at creating an environment of fear. The average Afghan is also fairly cynical and realize that the Western Troops will eventually leave and the Taliban will eventually take over and initiate reprisals against anyone seen working with the Western Forces. Which means the return of mass executions, the end of any education and social services.

The Taliban are not seen as the good guys, or the heros, they're seen as the eventual winners.

The only way to destroy the Taliban is to increase the literacy rate in Afghanistan, increase the delivery of essential services in food, water and infrastructure.

The failure in this conflict was the inability to close the borders with Pakistan.

Personally I think that the average foot soldier to the Taliban cause can probably be disarmed with enough motivation. The leaders are the ones who have to be destroyed whether they're in Pakistan or Afghanistan. I also think that there needs to be a stronger focus on sanctions against Iran as their biggest export besides Oil is terrorism expertise.

Or a one gigatonne nuke dropped right over Iran ( I kid I kid)

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by worth

I haven't read this whole thread, and I don't really want to jump into the discussion. I'm not going to talk about the validity of the war, rather I just wanted to add a bit about the soldier himself. Forgive me if i'm a bit off topic.

As a former soldier, and one who knows many who have participated in the war and currently serve, I can say the following:

1. If you have applied for a combat arms position in the Regular Force in the past 8 years, you are essentially applying for combat in a war zone. No one becomes a rifleman with the illusion of not deploying to Afghanistan.

2. The Infantry is full. The CF is not accepting any new recruits to the infantry because the regiments are full and there is no budget to increase the amount of troops. It is easy to draw the conclusion that many people want to be involved in this war regardless of the moral issues surrouonding it.

3. All reservists in Afghanistan willingly volunteered to serve there. The government can not deploy reservists like they can the regular force regiments.

4. Soldiers want war. That is their purpose. They have been trained and taught how to carry out operations. By entering into combat, they are doing their job, and it is the culmination of their training and something you can not experience anywhere else.

5. I can say with certainty, the Canadian contingent of combat arms deployed to Afghanistan are there because they want to be there. There is a very different situation down in the US, but I don't want to get into that.

On a personal note, I very much dislike the cries to "bring our troops home" on the basis that they are dying. Every soldier over there knows the dangers. They are volunteers and are over there because they want to be. We should not pull soldiers out based on the fact that they are dying. If it is decided the war is wrong or unjust, then pull them out. But do not use them as a pawn to get a point across and do not put words in their mouth.

I, funnily enough, agree with this point of view. It's why I don't really like to see armed forces involved in any kind of civilian activity or police action. I think CaptainCrunch talked about this once in a thread about the Oka rebellion.

That doesn't, however, mean I believe there is any validity to the war effort currently under way. I think it is an utterly useless expenditure of resources and manpower for a country with limited military resources.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Good luck to your foster son, I hope for every bit of safety that he can get.

I disagree with your second point though. Talking to friends of mine who have done multiple tours. The average Joe Afghan citizen see's the Taliban for what it is and hate them for it. However the Taliban are effective at creating an environment of fear. The average Afghan is also fairly cynical and realize that the Western Troops will eventually leave and the Taliban will eventually take over and initiate reprisals against anyone seen working with the Western Forces. Which means the return of mass executions, the end of any education and social services.

The Taliban are not seen as the good guys, or the heros, they're seen as the eventual winners.

The only way to destroy the Taliban is to increase the literacy rate in Afghanistan, increase the delivery of essential services in food, water and infrastructure.

On a personal note I'm scared less for my lad, I've told him I didn't spend 4 years getting his arse off drugs and back onto the straight and narrow just to get killed in some dusty hole.
The failure in this conflict was the inability to close the borders with Pakistan.

Personally I think that the average foot soldier to the Taliban cause can probably be disarmed with enough motivation. The leaders are the ones who have to be destroyed whether they're in Pakistan or Afghanistan. I also think that there needs to be a stronger focus on sanctions against Iran as their biggest export besides Oil is terrorism expertise.

Or a one gigatonne nuke dropped right over Iran ( I kid I kid)

The average Joe the world over wants a quite life with food on the table for the kids, the thing about Afghanistan is it isn't really a country, just a confederation of tribes and war lords, most Afghanis are pretty hardline muslim anyway so they may not like the Taliban, but they don't view them with the horror we do, in fact the Taliban are admired in Afghanistan for being probably the least corrupt of the countries recent regimes and the only one that could and did actually control the country and give them some sense of order.

Most of what the Taliban did and will do again is pretty much how Afghans would run the country if they were in charge, Khazi's views on women are no different from the Taliban.

The Taliban are not some small group of Afghan wack jobs, philosophically they pretty much represent what most Afghans and Waziris believe, even the ones that are opposed to them.

Where we in the west fail is in thinking that everyone if given the chance just wants to be like us, it simply isn't true, Sunni Islam is a profoundly conservative religeon that is fundementally opposed to western values and even if we could magically disappear the Taliban overnight the country would still end up with little in the way of democracy or equality as we understand it.

[Montana Moe]

Originally Posted by flameswin

How 'bout them apples?