Airport Tunnel Rejected Again? **UPDATE** It's built!

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by getbak

People don't want to live next to airports, that's why the areas next to airports tend to be less desirable,

I'd live next to an airport...

Originally Posted by getbak

However, the Airport Authority has said that there are plans for an alternate access to the airport from the south (via McCall Way, I believe) for commercial vehicles who need access to the airport.

I believe McCall way will also be cutoff just past the 4 way stop @ 78th Avenue (where you turn for the Westjet building and cargo facilities). I think the CAA may have a tunnel under the taxiways there, but that will be within the airport perimeter and used by the cargo companies that have airside access.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Culture doesnt affect those things, supply and demand do. People make more money here so parking and land are more expensive.

Well, if you only want people to come to Calgary only for the money and then leave when they are full, we don't no stinkin' bridges. If you want people to stay around for other reasons and establish themselves in the community long-term, you're going to need to give them more than an outlet mall by the airport. Otherwise when the jobs are no longer there, they will get out dodge.

If people have the right amenities and and live in vibrant cities, they will put up with the extra cost. A world-class bridge is not the game-changer, but it acts towards that goal. Some equally expensive interchange in bum-fataville used by 0.5% of the population does none of that.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

I'd live next to an airport...

Back in the day, my family used to live off a bluff that was looking onto Deerfoot, next to the train tracks, and across from the airport! It was the John Candy special.

[4X4]

Looking at a map of this proposed tunnel, I'm inclined to agree with getbak. $150 milllion or $250 million would go a lot further on Country Hills Blvd than it would giving a few neighbourhoods a three mile shortcut to the airport.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/ph...ort-tunnel.jpg

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

Hypothetically speaking, if the Airport was in the SW, would there be a tunnel being built right now? You bet your arse it would be.

The NE does not have the political clout with city council, either now or when the LRT was put at ground level on 36th Street.

I think the reason it doesnt have the clout is because it doenst have the votes. Looking at a map of Calgary I think I would be generous in thinking that 10% of the people live there.

Also the CTrain is above ground everywhere in Calgary so I dont see how it being above ground in the NE is any different.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by getbak

City Council should take the money that they've allocated for the tunnel and add it to the budget for expanding Country Hills Blvd and making that the main access point to the Airport from the NE. Making Country Hills the main East-West corridor would only add an additional 3km to a single trip to the Airport (1.5km further north, then 1.5km back south) compared to where the tunnel is planned to run.

I've said it before, the Tunnel isn't just for Airport access, when all of the Area east of the airport and inside the ring road is developed, CHB alone will not be able to handle the traffic. 50,000 residents going through a large industrial park to get to Deerfoot? CHB doesn't have room set aside for interchanges, nor should it. And not just from Deerfoot to Stoney NE, I would guess from Harvest Hills Blvd to Stoney NE.

I think not building the tunnel might cost just as much down the road due to the infrastructure upgrades required on CHB, ( and likely McKnight too), plus we would end up with a completely useless 96th Avenue that doesn't connect to anything east of the Airport.

Plus, there would be no future crosstown LRT route that would stop at the Airport. Plus there's a large industrial area being developed that isn't nearly as nice, because it isn't as accessible, etc.

[Table 5]

At the end of the day, they are going to build this tunnel. The question is do Calgarians want to find the money now (either through some sort of gov't help, tax increase, or taking it from other areas), or find at least twice as much money in a few years. You're going to pay for it no matter what.

It's kind of a no-brainer if you ask me.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Also the CTrain is above ground everywhere in Calgary so I dont see how it being above ground in the NE is any different.

Except there's not a million street crossings like there is on 36 Street, which carries a lot of traffic. Crowchild is an expressway, so any crossings over Crowfoot is done by bridge. The south line isn't on a major road, and only crosses minor streets here and there.

The 36 Street/C-Train combo is awful for left turners during rush hour. Plus greatly hurts the predestian boulevard potential that corridor can have, since street crossing accessibility is crucial.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Looking at a map of this proposed tunnel, I'm inclined to agree with getbak. $150 milllion or $250 million would go a lot further on Country Hills Blvd than it would giving a few neighbourhoods a three mile shortcut to the airport.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/ph...ort-tunnel.jpg

Again, the tunnel will be needed for much. much more than just airport access. The 2 miles of extra distance will be two miles of hell when everything is developed around there. How long does it take to drive 2 miles out of foothills industrial up Barlow trail towards deerfoot at rush hour? Or 2 miles up 36th street in the NE at rush hour? IMO, the situation on CHB could be worse than that if the tunnel isn't built.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I've said it before, the Tunnel isn't just for Airport access, when all of the Area east of the airport and inside the ring road is developed, CHB alone will not be able to handle the traffic. 50,000 residents going through a large industrial park to get to Deerfoot? CHB doesn't have room set aside for interchanges, nor should it. And not just from Deerfoot to Stoney NE, I would guess from Harvest Hills Blvd to Stoney NE.

I think not building the tunnel might cost just as much down the road due to the infrastructure upgrades required on CHB, ( and likely McKnight too), plus we would end up with a completely useless 96th Avenue that doesn't connect to anything east of the Airport.

Plus, there would be no future crosstown LRT route that would stop at the Airport. Plus there's a large industrial area being developed that isn't nearly as nice, because it isn't as accessible.

I don't get it. The proposed tunnel is on Airport Trail. The same airport trail that borders on the far north side of Saddle Ridge, which is the furthest NE community. CHB is a mere 1.5 miles north of that. Why spend $150 million or $1B in 10 years for such a frivolous shortcut, for so few people?
First of all, the shortcut doesn't exist right now, so what's the difference? Secondly, sorry about not shaving 10 minutes off your commute to the airport, NE, the rest of the city has to battle Deerfoot to get to the airport.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Well, if you only want people to come to Calgary only for the money and then leave when they are full, we don't no stinkin' bridges. If you want people to stay around for other reasons and establish themselves in the community long-term, you're going to need to give them more than an outlet mall by the airport. Otherwise when the jobs are no longer there, they will get out dodge.

If people have the right amenities and and live in vibrant cities, they will put up with the extra cost. A world-class bridge is not the game-changer, but it acts towards that goal. Some equally expensive interchange in bum-fataville used by 0.5% of the population does none of that.

Hey I take exception to you looking down on me living in bum fata ville. Those overpasses are critical in shaving down my commute time to 10 minutes

[Table 5]

That whole area isn't just about commuting. Airports tend to have pretty big commercial entities built around them (warehouses, shipping etc) that like to be close to the airport. A stunted road network will stall the entire economic development of that area.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Hey I take exception to you looking down on me living in bum fata ville. Those overpasses are critical in shaving down my commute time to 10 minutes

Hey I like overpasses as much as the next guy. I just also think overpasses for people and bikes are pretty sweet too.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Again, the tunnel will be needed for much. much more than just airport access. The 2 miles of extra distance will be two miles of hell when everything is developed around there. How long does it take to drive 2 miles out of foothills industrial up Barlow trail towards deerfoot at rush hour? Or 2 miles up 36th street in the NE at rush hour? IMO, the situation on CHB could be worse than that if the tunnel isn't built.

Well, it seems silly to me to go digging an expensive-as-frack tunnel, when upgrading existing roads is much cheaper and benefits way more people. I'm staring at a big map of Calgary on my wall as I write this, and there's no way that this shortcut does anything more than give Saddle Ridge, Martindale, Taradale, falconrigde and castle ridge a 10 minute short cut. To everyone else, it would be business as usual. $150 million could widen CHB and the north portioon of Barlow to accommodate all this traffic you're correct in predicting, once the rest of the quadrant is filled out.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Table 5

That whole area isn't just about commuting. Airports tend to have pretty big commercial entities built around them (warehouses, shipping etc) that like to be close to the airport. A stunted road network will stall the entire economic development of that area.

Exactly. That's why I can't figure out how the Airport Authority was barely supporting the project. They have plans for taxiway access on the east side of the runway, which means that they want to develop on the east side. That land is significantly less valuable without the tunnel in place for access.

I've wondered whether not having a tunnel would have a limiting effect on all kind of development in the area, residential too, because the traffic would be an issue. I might guess that it could cause significant leapfrogging of development to outside of the ring road, where access is better.

4x4, the tunnel isn't needed currently, for most, it's merely nice to have, except for a few hotel owners that have their hotels all of a sudden become significantly further from the airport.

The NEED will come with the development in the area, which is starting to happen. 10 years from now, it will be needed. 20 years from now, when it fully developed, it will be a disaster if it isn't there.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I'm staring at a big map of Calgary on my wall as I write this, and there's no way that this shortcut does anything more than give Saddle Ridge, Martindale, Taradale, falconrigde and castle ridge a 10 minute short cut.

OK, looking at that map how would you get from McKenzie to the airport at 7:30 am; after hearing of a pile-up on the Calf Robe Bridge?

I use my own example there; it's about options. It's also looking at the the current situation where McKnight to CHB is pretty far. If we were talking about that far between river bridges we would be talking about building 3 new bridges. Heck- we might even get some European dude to design it for us!

[4X4]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Exactly. That's why I can't figure out how the Airport Authority was barely supporting the project. They have plans for taxiway access on the east side of the runway, which means that they want to develop on the east side. That land is significantly less valuable without the tunnel in place for access.

I've wondered whether not having a tunnel would have a limiting effect on all kind of development in the area, residential too, because the traffic would be an issue. I might guess that it could cause significant leapfrogging of development to outside of the ring road, where access is better.

4x4, the tunnel isn't needed currently, for most, it's merely nice to have, except for a few hotel owners that have their hotels all of a sudden become significantly further from the airport.

The NEED will come with the development in the area, which is starting to happen. 10 years from now, it will be needed. 20 years from now, when it fully developed, it will be a disaster if it isn't there.

Sorry, man. I just don't agree with you. Looking at a big map of the city, the only area that would be directly and negatively affected, are the existing neighbourhoods I just mentioned, plus whatever gets built west of Saddle Ridge and east of the airport. Everyone else will already be driving a few miles, so an extra couple isn't going to make a huge difference.

I'd argue that extending Airport Trail over Nose Creek to Harvest Hills Blvd would serve way more people, both now and in the future, and alleviate lots of pressure off CHB, but that soesnt make that a good idea either.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by ken0042

OK, looking at that map how would you get from McKenzie to the airport at 7:30 am; after hearing of a pile-up on the Calf Robe Bridge?

I use my own example there; it's about options. It's also looking at the the current situation where McKnight to CHB is pretty far. If we were talking about that far between river bridges we would be talking about building 3 new bridges. Heck- we might even get some European dude to design it for us!

Stoney Trail. 85th street. Are you sure you can see just exactly where this tunnel is proposed? It's not doing anything for you southies.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Well, it seems silly to me to go digging an expensive-as-frack tunnel, when upgrading existing roads is much cheaper and benefits way more people. I'm staring at a big map of Calgary on my wall as I write this, and there's no way that this shortcut does anything more than give Saddle Ridge, Martindale, Taradale, falconrigde and castle ridge a 10 minute short cut. To everyone else, it would be business as usual. $150 million could widen CHB and the north portioon of Barlow to accommodate all this traffic you're correct in predicting, once the rest of the quadrant is filled out.

I think you are underestimating how much work it would take to upgrade CHB to handle all of the (future) traffic, and like I said in an earlier post, crosstown traffic would be affected too. So, the traffic that could use Airport trail to get from the NE to the North Central area would have to use CHB as well. I'm guessing that everything on CHB between Harvest Hills Blvd and at least Metis Trail may have to be full freeway. At the very least, a fairly substantial widening to 4 lanes each way and some key interchanges. I can see the cost of that running to $300 million in today's dollars easily.

Plus, like I said, I think it might force McKnight to be a little wider than it might otherwise need to be. McKnight will need to be freeway in the future anyway, but it would need to be built to handle a little bit more traffic, adding some cost there too.

Further, the community plans of the planned developements would have to be revised to give more room and less lights on CHB, and could allow more lights and less room to 96th Ave East of the Airport, so it may actually be useful for something.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I use my own example there; it's about options. It's also looking at the the current situation where McKnight to CHB is pretty far. If we were talking about that far between river bridges we would be talking about building 3 new bridges. Heck- we might even get some European dude to design it for us!

For comparison sake, it would be the equivalent of cutting of the cross quadrant routes between Glenmore Trail and Canyon Meadows. Take those away, and the whole area for traffic becomes a clusterfata.

That's what will happen without the tunnel when the area is built up. Sure, you can continue 96 Ave from Metis Trail to Stoney Trail E, but communters are still going to have to travel up to Country Hills and McKnight.

Upgrading McKnight and CHB to increase it's capacity probably will cost more then building then going with the tunnel option.