Accident at Stampede

[CaptainCrunch]

Jeez I was horrified that the guy with the Blackberry was taking pictures, which I see a lot of now a days.

Its weird that he wanted to get someone else to call for help.

Did anyone hit the panic button on the train?

[troutman]

(b) a person other than a person mentioned in clause (a) voluntarily renders emergency first aid assistance and that assistance is rendered at the immediate scene of the accident or emergency,

the physician, registered health discipline member, registered nurse or other person is not liable for damages for injuries to or the death of that person alleged to have been caused by an act or omission on his or her part in rendering the medical services or first aid assistance, unless it is established that the injuries or death were caused by gross negligence on his or her part.

This section may not offer much protection to a layperson. Someone not trained in emergency procedures could easily be grossly negligent?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by troutman

(b) a person other than a person mentioned in clause (a) voluntarily renders emergency first aid assistance and that assistance is rendered at the immediate scene of the accident or emergency,

the physician, registered health discipline member, registered nurse or other person is not liable for damages for injuries to or the death of that person alleged to have been caused by an act or omission on his or her part in rendering the medical services or first aid assistance, unless it is established that the injuries or death were caused by gross negligence on his or her part.

This section may not offer much protection to a layperson. Someone not trained in emergency procedures could easily be grossly negligent?

Grossly negligent in regard to what a reasonable person would know.

[CaptainCrunch]

A few years ago when I lived in Saskatchewan I was driving to a pick up hockey game in the dead of winter in really bad conditions. A van went screaming by us at about 150 km/ hour and I turned to my friends and bet them that we'd see that van in the ditch somewhere ahead.

Sure enough we came around the corner and it was on its side in the ditch. No fire but it was fairly crushed. Being first on the scene I told a friend of mine to call 9-11 and I went to assess the situation.

Of course the woman was driving with her two kids and a now absolutely panic strickened dog.

We got the kids out who were ok, and the dog out, but the driver was concious and lucid but told us that she banged her head on the side window and her neck hurt.

By this time a crowd had gathered. I decided since there wasn't a fire to stabilize her head and neck and not pull her out of the van. Of course some yahoo had hero syndrome and decided to get her out of the van, and I was pushed aside while they manhandled her stupidly out of the van.

The moral of the story is that its ok to intervene in an accident but too many people have images of themselves in the paper with pictures of them carrying the person to safety.

If you don't know what to do, or your not trained in first aid, you do the minimum. You control the scene, you get help and you calm down the victim so they don't move if there's no danger to them by staying put. If the victims not breathing and you don't know recessitation then don't do something stupid that will harm the person more. If the victim has bleeding you control the bleeding with pressure, you don't stupidly apply a tournaquet if you don't know how it works.

Everyone should take the time to take a first aid course in my mind and keep the certification up to date.

But don't be the hero and do too much.

[peter12]

Last year, I was the first witness on the scene of a woman pedestrian getting hit by a driver going through a spotlight. I was one of maybe 3/50 bystanders that ran over to help. What's amazing to me, is as Captain said, you really have to do so little.

We got the woman off the road, gave her a jacket to put her head down, made sure the driver stayed on the scene, phoned 9/11, and stayed around to file witness statements.

Most people just keep walking.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by peter12

getting hit by a driver going through a spotlight.

How did they get the car onto the stage?


Seriously, good work peter, that's what people need to do more of. Even if you aren't trained, there are things you can do to help out until more qualified help arrives.

A couple of years ago, I was at a BBQ, and one of my friends' kids had fell of a table onto her head. The girl seemed to be ok from that, until a few minutes later, when she just fell to the ground unconscious. I didn't see it happen, but my friend called for someone to call 911. I came over, and the girl wasn't breathing, and a quick checking of the mouth for something she may have been choking on came up with nothing. I blew one breath of air into her mouth and she took a big gasp, and started breathing. When EMS arrived 2 minutes later, I calmly explained the details of the situation and what I had done to the EMS personnel, and let them take over (wasn't much to do for them any more).

But I shouldn't take full credit for the situation either, there were other people helping too.

Things anyone can do to help:
1. Call for help (911, or yelling)
2. Help emergency personnel to get there as quickly as possible - getting people out of the way, guiding the ambulance to the spot, etc
3. Move people out of dangerous situations, where further injury is somewhat likely
4. If you are a witness, giving your account to emergency personnel, this may aid their understanding of what injuries may have occurred
5. Talk to the victims, keep them alert
6. Cover the victims to help prevent shock.
7. etc.

[Russic]

I took an infant cpr course a few months back and our instructor was quite adamant that in most cases waiting for somebody trained to handle the situation is far better than rolling up your sleeves and diving in. I can't remember the stat she provided, but it was something like 80% of spinal injuries occur after the accident and are the result of improper medical care at the scene. Feel free to call BS on that one, it's just what she said.

[Mirajj]

(b) a person other than a person mentioned in clause (a) voluntarily renders emergency first aid assistance and that assistance is rendered at the immediate scene of the accident or emergency,

the physician, registered health discipline member, registered nurse or other person is not liable for damages for injuries to or the death of that person alleged to have been caused by an act or omission on his or her part in rendering the medical services or first aid assistance, unless it is established that the injuries or death were caused by gross negligence on his or her part.

Using this part of the law, you can see how the example I posted earlier could just as easily happen here as it did in the States. A car has flipped over. I pull a person out of the car, and perform CPR on them, saving their life, but paralyzing them and breaking some ribs, for good measure.

They can still sue me for paralyzing them when I pulled them out of the car (as that is not considered First Aid or Medical Assistance) but they can't sue me for the rib(s) I broke while giving them CPR. See the difference? And that's just at first blush, the laws are riddled with holes and problems like that that lawyers (of which I am not one) can look for to exploit.

Also, I would like to point out that I never said that I would NOT help someone, simply that I'd have to consider the ramifications first. Yes, I do realize that in an emergency situation, every second can count and that may mean the death of the person IN the situation.

Thing is, as has been pointed out, it's pretty easy to sit behind your keyboard and condemn someone for truthfully saying how they'd act in an emergency situation. It's pretty easy to be a keyboard hero and pile on when you really don't know how you'd act or what you'd do. Anyone remember the condemnation and vilification of those folks on the Greyhound bus during that incident? Yes, I have been in the military. Not only have I had basic first aid, I've also had advanced first aid and combat/field emergency first aid. I can deal with a bullet wound, a compound fracture and a sucking chest wound if I need to (though, frankly, I'd want a refresher on that last one, it's been a while...). I have not been in an emergency situation where there were injuries yet, so I can not 100% say exactly how I'd react. I have been in dangerous situations where an injury emergency almost occurred, but quick thinking and action prevented bigger problems.

You can hem and haw and use examples and back and forth's as long as you like, but until you are there, in that situation, you just don't know what you are going to do, how you are going to react. From my past experience, I have a decent idea of what I would do in most given situations. I also still firmly believe, as someone else posted earlier, that if you are in an emergency situation in which you can wait for someone who better knows what they are doing to arrive, you should. How many of the folks posting in this thread actually have an accredited First Aid course to their name? I know that myself and Conroy22 do, but that's it. Does anyone who hasn't had a course in what to do honestly and truly believe that if you came upon someone lying bleeding to death, that you could 'fix' them? With no training at all? Seriously? There are things an untrained person first to the scene can do, as has also been posted earlier. But the problem is too many folks see themselves as heroes, and they are just going to make a situation worse. The fact that they may screw up the rest of their life in the mix is just an added 'bonus'.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

Using this part of the law, you can see how the example I posted earlier could just as easily happen here as it did in the States. A car has flipped over. I pull a person out of the car, and perform CPR on them, saving their life, but paralyzing them and breaking some ribs, for good measure.

They can still sue me for paralyzing them when I pulled them out of the car (as that is not considered First Aid or Medical Assistance) but they can't sue me for the rib(s) I broke while giving them CPR. See the difference? And that's just at first blush, the laws are riddled with holes and problems like that that lawyers (of which I am not one) can look for to exploit.

Taking them out of a flipped over car to provide medical assistance certainly would fall under Medical assistance as they couldn't get the CPR you gave them if they remained in the car.

Also, no way would a judge rule that taking someone out of a flipped over car so that you could provide CPR to them would come close to gross negligence.

If these holes are riddled with holes provide us with all the examples of folks in Canada getting screwed by them. Heck provide one example of someone getting screwed by these loopholes.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

Using this part of the law, you can see how the example I posted earlier could just as easily happen here as it did in the States. A car has flipped over. I pull a person out of the car, and perform CPR on them, saving their life, but paralyzing them and breaking some ribs, for good measure.

They can still sue me for paralyzing them when I pulled them out of the car (as that is not considered First Aid or Medical Assistance) but they can't sue me for the rib(s) I broke while giving them CPR. See the difference? And that's just at first blush, the laws are riddled with holes and problems like that that lawyers (of which I am not one) can look for to exploit.

Just curious where you're getting this from. I'm sure that it has been argued that way by plaintiff's attorneys, but I'm not so sure that's the actual state of the law, at least I've never heard of it. I do agree that the notion that a good samaritan's law provides blanket protection to rescuers is very flawed.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moon

Taking them out of a flipped over car to provide medical assistance certainly would fall under Medical assistance as they couldn't get the CPR you gave them if they remained in the car.

Also, no way would a judge rule that taking someone out of a flipped over car so that you could provide CPR to them would come close to gross negligence.

If these holes are riddled with holes provide us with all the examples of folks in Canada getting screwed by them. Heck provide one example of someone getting screwed by these loopholes.

Depends on the situation, there are a number of variable involved when a negligence analysis is at issue. Both the unique elements of the situation and the knowledge of the rescuer would come into play, things could go in a myriad of directions when all is said and done.

[moon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Depends on the situation, there are a number of variable involved when a negligence analysis is at issue. Both the unique elements of the situation and the knowledge of the rescuer would come into play, things could go in a myriad of directions when all is said and done.

Perhaps in the States but in Canada unless you were an absolute moron when taking them out of the car I don't see it being much of an issue at all.

There have been enough incidents of people helping out in these situations and 0 incidents of them being successfully sued.

If it was that much of an issue I expect we would have heard about at least one lawsuit by now.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moon

Perhaps in the States but in Canada unless you were an absolute moron when taking them out of the car I don't see it being much of an issue at all.

There have been enough incidents of people helping out in these situations and 0 incidents of them being successfully sued.

If it was that much of an issue I expect we would have heard about at least one lawsuit by now.

It has nothing to do with borders, negligence analysis in Canada and the US is derived from the same body of law. And I'm sure there have been plenty of instances of people being sued, the fact that it doesn't show up in the Sun doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The success level of the suits may be a different story, but I can guarantee they happen.

[moon]

Originally Posted by valo403

It has nothing to do with borders, negligence analysis in Canada and the US is derived from the same body of law. And I'm sure there have been plenty of instances of people being sued, the fact that it doesn't show up in the Sun doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The success level of the suits may be a different story, but I can guarantee they happen.

Unsuccessful lawsuits would just go to show that the risk of negligence in these instances is either 0 or about as close as it can get.

It is great that the negligence analysis in the the two countries are the same but if the findings are applied differently then the lead up to it doesn't really matter.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by valo403

It has nothing to do with borders, negligence analysis in Canada and the US is derived from the same body of law. And I'm sure there have been plenty of instances of people being sued, the fact that it doesn't show up in the Sun doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The success level of the suits may be a different story, but I can guarantee they happen.

Not that I'm doubting you, but you'd think there be even just one example that we could look at of this happening, if it happens all the time?

[csnarpy]

Mirajj's attitude is interesting.... As a former military I know that all personnel are trained in Emergency First Aid and CPR and that you can be charged if you don't respond to a first response emergency situation. But I can also understand his apprehension in today's society - which in many countries, is quite sad (go to Europe and you'll know what i mean - you can be sued for breathing wrong, lol)

As a former Medic, if present, I would have been right in the middle of it without a second thought, but that's the training kicking in (and i've seen/been involved with a lot worse scenarios). Believe it or not, that's exactly what happened with Conroy22 - although he hadn't actually been in a rescue situation before, he had employment and training that put's him in that mindset to get involved.

I'm not sure what Mirajj did in the forces but I do agree with him about just anyone jumping in to help. It really can lead to or immediately worsen a situation and/or someones health. There are a lot of posers out there that just want to be the hero and can really screw things up. Especially if trained emergency personnel are basically on the scene.

As for the Good Samaritan's Act. I love it. When I left the forces, i always thought that there should be some sort of protection, especially if you are trained and act upon your instincts to help others. In my opinion, like Quebec did, i wish they would push it a little farther and bring it up to military standards of requiring trained people to help if first on a scene of a non-violent accident. Most usually do but sometimes.... Again, just my opinion.