Accident at Stampede

[Vox]

Originally Posted by pylon

After reading a statement like that, or anything else you have posted, I am thankful you chose not to enter emergency services. You sound like a bit of a selfish coward actually. Surprises me you were in the military.

I am no soldier, police officer, or firefighter. I do have advanced first aid however, I have been in 2 situations in my life, where I have had to use it. And a couple others where I have tried to assist, only to come across corpses. In one situation had I and another gentleman on the scene had not acted, someone would have died. Never, not for one second, in any instance, did I worry about my future or being sued. The focus was first and foremost trying to save someones life, or help someone in severe trauma.

Kudos to conroy22, what you did is awesome. Thank god it was you there, not mirajj.

I started to simply thank you, but I'll reply to the post instead to be clear that the thanks is for your actions in tough situations. I definately commend that.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

The problems I have with random folks just jumping in and helping are two fold. First, if you think you know what you are doing, and try to help and make the situation worse, you can become a target of a lawsuit as well.There are all sorts of funky laws that start to apply in weird ways about helping someone, conscious or unconscious, etc.

http://www.canadianlawsite.ca/goodsamaritan.htm

You can't be sued.

Originally Posted by Mirajj

Second, how many folks actually have useful, up-to-date medical aid training? I see a LOT of idiots in my daily travels, and the last thing I would want is someone who thinks they know what they are doing but who really doesn't try to 'help' me.

Odds are pretty good that anyone who is willing to be a first responder at a trauma scene has completed at least basic first aid.

Originally Posted by Mirajj

Also, what disturbed me a bit about this was that despite folks whipping out iPhones and Tweeting and the like...almost no one got the situational information right. How many different rides was it said to be? How many different injury/fatality totals? If folks can't keep their heads about them enough to read the name off the ride and count the folks on the floor, as it were, you don't want them doing more complicated things like trying to help. You just want them out of the way so the real helpers can do their thing.

How many people who were posting information to be attention whores or to make themselves important? Those people probably wouldn't be first responders anyways.

[amorak]

Mirajj dissapoints me as a human being. Conroy22, you cancel out that disappointment and then some - kudos!

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by Vox

Perhaps I misunderstand your premise. I read your post as trying to providing a reason that Conroy22 should NOT have assisted. That is what I disagree with. I applaud him for assisting.

I applaud him also.

I posted that story because I read it previously and it reminded me kind of what Conroy22 did. Unfortunatly the other person got arrested.

[conroy22]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

I am not adverse to helping...but I will not simply run in and try to help without first thinking through the consequences.

Let me just ask you this then. If you saw 10 teenagers being thrown from a ride, bleeding, mangled, screaming and crying for any kind of help they could get, while their parents stood hysterically crying and yelling for the help of others, you would stop and think about what could potentially happen to YOU and how much money you could possibly loose, while leaving them there helpless in pain to think about what would be the right choice, to help those innocent kids or not. I'm only 19 and don't know crap all about Canada's Justice System other then the fact I know it's full of a lot of bulls**t rules that I have seen first hand, but the thought of thinking about myself before others would never cross my mind. The kids we were dealing with were 12, 13, 14 and had their whole lives ahead of them. Their parents were standing on the outskirts of the incident wondering if their children were even dead or alive while we were working with them. I can guarantee that all they cared about was that their kids were getting help and that they were alive. If someone wanted to fight me for what I did, then let them, I'll read every constitution and law and learn about it while I go along, and if I was to loose then big deal, at least I would live for the rest of my life knowing that I tried my best to help an innocent girl who was enjoying a thrill ride live another day, and didn't let her lay there and dye. If I had a child in that situation and didn't know what to do myself because I was so shocked, I would want all the help I could get, weather they really knew what they were doing or not, and I wouldn't even think about filing lawsuits or suing the people that helped, because they were doing all they were able to do. If my kid suffered a broken arm or had an infected cut because someone didn't properly know what they were doing, then so what, at least they are alive and will live to see another day, and that's what matters the most, keeping people alive. Things like that can go away...but standing there and doing nothing by taking pictures and videoing it dosen't help the situation at all. I know not everyone can help, and that is totally understandable, I'm not blaming anyone for not helping if they were scared or didn't know what to do. But even if you are brave enough to come up and help with no experience, it's the people with that experience that will help you out. There was a first year nursing student helping me with the 13 year old girl, who I found out today is the one who is still in the hospital with two punctured lungs, kidney and spleen damage, and she didn't know how to properly put on a neck brace, so I started instructing her while I was still bracing the girl's head and neck until a more professional came over and took over. EDIT: (forgot to finish what I was trying to get at..) Even if you don't know what you're doing, people who know what to do will instruct you and give you the confidence in order to do a job and at least help out a little, even if you or someone else may not think that it is a lot.

I was at the McKenzie Lake a few years ago when a man drowned and died (must have been about 16 at the time and just got my lifeguarding certification a few months earlier) and by the time two men had dragged him out of the water, they were already doing CPR on him by the time we got there. I didn't try to help perform CPR as there were many adults around him helping who were trained, and I was scared to interfere their process by going up to everyone and asking if I could help because I wasn't the first one on the scene, while they were trying to do their jobs. My friend and I (the same one I was with during the stampede incident) were trying to get people to back away from the scene so they could have room to move and tell parents to take their little kids somewhere else because they didn't need to watch such an incident. We met the emergency crews at the front gates and ushered them along with a few other by standards in the direction of where the man was. Even though I was trained to help and I wasn't exactly needed physically helping the man, there were still other ways that we could help out.

I've worked at pools for 4 years and on my watch have never had to jump in and rescue someone, but I've seen it happen numerous times. Our job is not to stand there and think 'oh, he is drowning, if I save him are his parents going to file a lawsuit against me and I'm going to loose a bunch of money, or should I just leave him there for another lifeguard to go save?'

I'm pretty sure most people are grateful for whatever kind of help they can get, especially if it is for the help of their child. If that was your kid on that ride, would you want people to help them whether they knew what they were doing or not, or just stand there and watch, videotape, and take pictures of them instead because they didn't want to get themselves in a bunch of trouble, all the while leaving your kid for dead?

[valo403]

The piling on Mirajj here is pretty ridiculous, all he did was state what most of the population thinks. I'm sure all of you think you'd do something from behind your keyboards, but the reality is most of you would be standing there stunned or would take steps that would be of little to no help, or potentially cause further problems. If you have the ability to help and don't that's a different situation, but most of us don't. I agree with Conroy22's earlier statement that maybe such basic training should be part of school curriculum though, nothing but good can come from that.

If I was on site I wouldn't have jumped in to give medical attention for one very simple reason, I have no idea what the right thing is to do in that situation. I have zero training. I know that where there's a concern of spinal injury I would do more harm than good if acting on my own. Not something I'm proud of, wish I knew more and probably should, but I simply don't. If it's a situation I was qualified to help with, say simply moving debris to allow treatment I'd be there in a heartbeat, but that's a different situation.

As for good samaritan acts, I don't know the details of Canadian law, but people in US states with good samaritan acts still find themselves facing lawsuits. It's not a complete pass.

[pylon]

conroy22... You don't have to justify your actions to him. You are a better person than him, plain and simple. At your age, you should maybe look at EMS, or CFD. Sounds like you would be an excellent candidate. I have a couple friends that are EMT's, and I am envious of what they do, and they find their work extremely fulfilling. Also this incident and your actions would look excellent on your application.

[stang]

Again the States and Canada have very different laws.

I agree with you, if you arent qualified you shouldnt be doing much. However just being there is a big help all in its own. If you see a car rolled over in a ditch just pulling over calling 911 and going down and talking to the victim (concious or not) and providing reassurance goes a long way.

I work in the Oil Patch, I sometimes forget that not everyone has been through First Aid/CPR 25 times

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by valo403

The piling on Mirajj here is pretty ridiculous, all he did was state what most of the population thinks. I'm sure all of you think you'd do something from behind your keyboards, but the reality is most of you would be standing there stunned or would take steps that would be of little to no help, or potentially cause further problems. If you have the ability to help and don't that's a different situation, but most of us don't. I agree with Conroy22's earlier statement that maybe such basic training should be part of school curriculum though, nothing but good can come from that.

If I was on site I wouldn't have jumped in to give medical attention for one very simple reason, I have no idea what the right thing is to do in that situation. I have zero training. I know that where there's a concern of spinal injury I would do more harm than good if acting on my own. Not something I'm proud of, wish I knew more and probably should, but I simply don't. If it's a situation I was qualified to help with, say simply moving debris to allow treatment I'd be there in a heartbeat, but that's a different situation.

As for good samaritan acts, I don't know the details of Canadian law, but people in US states with good samaritan acts still find themselves facing lawsuits. It's not a complete pass.

He said he wouldnt do anything to help because of his own life. Id understand if he said he would do anything because he wasnt qualifed, but thats not what he's saying.

I agree, if you're not qualifed you should not run in there and do something stupid. Use your judgement.

If my judgement tells me to attempt to save someone I would attempt to do so.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

He said he wouldnt do anything to help because of his own life. Id understand if he said he would do anything because he wasnt qualifed, but thats not what he's saying.

I agree, if you're not qualifed you should not run in there and do something stupid. Use your judgement.

If my judgement tells me to attempt to save someone I would attempt to do so.

Fair enough, the self interest excuse is pretty weak. I just don't think it's fair to pile on people for not helping if they wouldn't be of any help (not saying you did that BTW). But keep your phones in your pockets, that's just pathetic.

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by stang

Again the States and Canada have very different laws.

I agree with you, if you arent qualified you shouldnt be doing much. However just being there is a big help all in its own. If you see a car rolled over in a ditch just pulling over calling 911 and going down and talking to the victim (concious or not) and providing reassurance goes a long way.

I work in the Oil Patch, I sometimes forget that not everyone has been through First Aid/CPR 25 times

If a car was on fire and you just pulled up would you call 911 first or run towards the car and attempt to save someone?

Just wondering what the "proper procedure" is.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by valo403

The piling on Mirajj here is pretty ridiculous, all he did was state what most of the population thinks. I'm sure all of you think you'd do something from behind your keyboards, but the reality is most of you would be standing there stunned or would take steps that would be of little to no help, or potentially cause further problems. If you have the ability to help and don't that's a different situation, but most of us don't. I agree with Conroy22's earlier statement that maybe such basic training should be part of school curriculum though, nothing but good can come from that.

If I was on site I wouldn't have jumped in to give medical attention for one very simple reason, I have no idea what the right thing is to do in that situation. I have zero training. I know that where there's a concern of spinal injury I would do more harm than good if acting on my own. Not something I'm proud of, wish I knew more and probably should, but I simply don't. If it's a situation I was qualified to help with, say simply moving debris to allow treatment I'd be there in a heartbeat, but that's a different situation.

As for good samaritan acts, I don't know the details of Canadian law, but people in US states with good samaritan acts still find themselves facing lawsuits. It's not a complete pass.

If you don't know what to do, that's fair as long as there is someone there that does. If there is nobody there, you at least have to use common sense and try something, as opposed to letting someone die. In first aid the mantra is always, life over limb.

However, if Mirajj was in the military, in any capacity, he would have at least basic first aid training. The piling on is because he out and out said he would think of himself and financial repercussions before he acted. In emergencies, literal seconds can be the difference between life and death. You don't have time to check your stock portfolio, or insurance policy. What if the Sabres Trainer had worried about similar repercussions when he literally reached inside Clint Malarchuk's throat to pinch off his jugular. He would have bled to death had he waited 10 seconds.

Also, if you feel helpless, and would like to get first aid training, so you are never in that position, there are numerous places that offer it in 1 and 2 day courses. My courses were paid for by an employer years ago (many employers will pay), and every few years I make sure I update my certification.

[conroy22]

Originally Posted by valo403

The piling on Mirajj here is pretty ridiculous, all he did was state what most of the population thinks. I'm sure all of you think you'd do something from behind your keyboards, but the reality is most of you would be standing there stunned or would take steps that would be of little to no help, or potentially cause further problems. If you have the ability to help and don't that's a different situation, but most of us don't. I agree with Conroy22's earlier statement that maybe such basic training should be part of school curriculum though, nothing but good can come from that.

Didn't mean to misjudge what he said, he is entitled to his own opinion, however he blatantly said that he would think of himself before others. I was just stating what I personally would do in emergency situations. Then again, I am trained so I have a different mindset on it then people who aren't.

If I was on site I wouldn't have jumped in to give medical attention for one very simple reason, I have no idea what the right thing is to do in that situation. I have zero training. I know that where there's a concern of spinal injury I would do more harm than good if acting on my own. Not something I'm proud of, wish I knew more and probably should, but I simply don't. If it's a situation I was qualified to help with, say simply moving debris to allow treatment I'd be there in a heartbeat, but that's a different situation.

This is where I think there should be some programs, or in schools, that teach these kind of things, so that everyone at least has some sort of an idea how to deal with emergency situations. Start teaching it in schools. If they are going to make French and gym mandatory, why not make it mandatory to know basic first aid, to know how to deal with spinals, seizures, broken bones, everything that could randomly happen in everyday life. I'm not at all blaming you for now knowing what to do, I just think it should somehow be incorporated into school or work programs. Totally agree with you on your other point as well. From how I saw the girl's body position from the top of the slide, I suspected there might be a suspected spinal, so she was the one I was aiming to get at more so over the other ones who were in less critical condition. Not that I was choosing, I would have helped anyone I could, but when spinal injuries occur in the water, EMS and the paramedics are not the ones who deal with them until after they are out of the water, its the lifeguards jobs to deal with them in the water, so we go through a lot of intense training and do spinal scenarios over and over and over, so at least I knew what I was doing when I got to her. The others I was with may not have had the knowledge I did, so that's why I chose her to go to first, so I knew there was at least one person with spinal knowledge.

[Nehkara]

While I do understand what Mirajj is getting at, and he happens to be one of my good friends, I think that Canada has much better Good Samaritan laws than the US AND Canada is a much less litigious culture than that of the US.

I decided to make sure I knew what I was talking about, so here is the law as it stands in Alberta so there is no further confusion:

EMERGENCY MEDICAL AID ACT
Chapter E-7

HER MAJESTY, by and with the advice and consent of the
Legislative Assembly of Alberta, enacts as follows:


Definitions

1 In this Act,
(a) “physician” means a person who is a regulated member of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta who is a physician, surgeon or osteopath;

(b) “registered health discipline member” means a person
who is registered under the Health Disciplines Act or a
regulated member under Schedule 1, 10, 13, 18 or 25 to
the Health Professions Act;

(c) “registered nurse” means a person who is a registered
nurse within the meaning of the Health Professions Act.


Protection from action

2 If, in respect of a person who is ill, injured or unconscious as the result of an accident or other emergency,

(a) a physician, registered health discipline member, or registered nurse voluntarily and without expectation of compensation or reward renders emergency medical services or first aid assistance and the services or assistance are not rendered at a hospital or other place having adequate medical facilities and equipment, or

(b) a person other than a person mentioned in clause (a) voluntarily renders emergency first aid assistance and that assistance is rendered at the immediate scene of the accident or emergency,

the physician, registered health discipline member, registered nurse or other person is not liable for damages for injuries to or the death of that person alleged to have been caused by an act or omission on his or her part in rendering the medical services or first aid assistance, unless it is established that the injuries or death were caused by gross negligence on his or her part.

Source

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

If a car was on fire and you just pulled up would you call 911 first or run towards the car and attempt to save someone?

Just wondering what the "proper procedure" is.

Again, life over limb. If there is an immediate emergency where the occupant would burn to death, you would attempt to extricate the victim first. However, it kind of would be a grey area, as a firefighter would never advise someone to run into a burning building, and die them self without the proper equipment to save a life.

If you said "My friend is dangling from a cliff and losing grip, should I rescue or call 911.... obviously you attempt a rescue first." In a cardiac arrest situation, if you know CPR, you would dial 911 first, and start chest compressions immediately while you were on the phone waiting to get through.

[amorak]

Valo403 - There is a big, big difference between inaction due to lack of knowledge and inaction due to concern over ones pocketbook. One I understand and one I pity.

[conroy22]

Originally Posted by pylon

Again, life over limb. If there is an immediate emergency where the occupant would burn to death, you would attempt to extricate the victim first. However, it kind of would be a grey area, as a firefighter would never advise someone to run into a burning building, and die them self without the proper equipment to save a life.

If you said "My friend is dangling from a cliff and losing grip, should I rescue or call 911.... obviously you attempt a rescue first." In a cardiac arrest situation, if you know CPR, you would dial 911 first, and start chest compressions immediately while you were on the phone waiting to get through.

This is where I think the USA and Canada differ. The Red Cross and the Lifesaving Society always taught us that saving the persons life is more important then worrying about broken bones or other physical complications, no matter what. If you have to break a few ribs to perform CPR, then you have to break a few ribs, they will heal, but their life won't. From what I remember, I have always been told that in Canada, if you attempt to help someone in need, then you cannot be sued. Of course there are probably exceptions to this, but I'm trying to remember what my Red Cross instructors used to tell us when I was little. Of course, you are always supposed to put your safety in front of the other persons, but I've always thought it would depend on the situation. Running into a burning building, you are clearly risking your safety, and you are not going to get blamed if you decided not to go help by risking your safety.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by amorak

Valo403 - There is a big, big difference between inaction due to lack of knowledge and inaction due to concern over ones pocketbook. One I understand and one I pity.

Agreed, seems I convinced myself that he was treating the inability as a given. Maybe that wasn't the case.

[stang]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

If a car was on fire and you just pulled up would you call 911 first or run towards the car and attempt to save someone?

Just wondering what the "proper procedure" is.

Not enough info. And it really all depends on the persons level of training.

How bigs the fire?
Is the person inside concious?
Is my wife with me?

I guess I would have my wife call 911, while I attempted to put the fire out with my trucks fire extinguisher. That failing I would try to pull said person out.

Of course easy enough to say when typing words. When my adrenaline kicks in, and depending on the situation who knows. As conroy22 can attest you just jump into action mode and your training takes over. Afterwords is when you have time to think.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

It is not just now, there is a well know psyc study done that shows te more people around, the less chance of you receiving help. Everyone thinks that someone else more qualifies and/or capable will step in. that or in other instances people think someone
else must have already called for help/done something.

think about the last time you stopped to assist someone broken down on the side of deerfoot. Have you ever?
now think if you driving down a long secluded road. Chances are you would stop because you know you are probably the only option this person has

I never used to believe that but l believe it now. Last year l was on the train and someone collapsed and had a seizure and started foaming at the mouth. On a train PACKED with people, no one did anything. One guy actually took out his blackberry and tried to give it to people to get them to call the ambulance. I was so angry seeing that, l almost grabbed his phone and threw it at his head. Luckily 2 other women helped me assist the guy. Ever since then l have been repulsed by crowds of people who don't do $hit.