Accident at Stampede

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

The problems I have with random folks just jumping in and helping are two fold. First, if you think you know what you are doing, and try to help and make the situation worse, you can become a target of a lawsuit as well.There are all sorts of funky laws that start to apply in weird ways about helping someone, conscious or unconscious, etc.

Second, how many folks actually have useful, up-to-date medical aid training? I see a LOT of idiots in my daily travels, and the last thing I would want is someone who thinks they know what they are doing but who really doesn't try to 'help' me.

Also, what disturbed me a bit about this was that despite folks whipping out iPhones and Tweeting and the like...almost no one got the situational information right. How many different rides was it said to be? How many different injury/fatality totals? If folks can't keep their heads about them enough to read the name off the ride and count the folks on the floor, as it were, you don't want them doing more complicated things like trying to help. You just want them out of the way so the real helpers can do their thing.

So lets say someone died because no one came to their aid quickly enough.

Would you rather help them and maybe take a lawsuit or live with the fact that you might have been able to prevent their death by helping them.

It sound like Conroy22 had some training to handle a situation like this.
He should be able to forgive himself if he faced a lawsuit, but would proably have a lot harder time forgiving himself if someone died and he might have been able to do something about it.

[Mirajj]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

So lets say someone died because no one came to their aid quickly enough.

Would you rather help them and maybe take a lawsuit or live with the fact that you might have been able to prevent their death by helping them.

It sound like Conroy22 had some training to handle a situation like this.
He should be able to forgive himself if he faced a lawsuit, but would proably have a lot harder time forgiving himself if someone died and he might have been able to do something about it.

Let's say you do help someone, and they decide to sue. The judge agrees with them, and you are damn near ruined by the settlement they get that you have to pay for deciding to try to be nice and help them. Can you afford to cover someone's "Pain and suffering" for the rest of their life, while trying to provide for YOUR family?

Would you still do it, or would you let them go?

Personally speaking, I'd let them go. As evil as it sounds, I value my life and lifestyle more than I do some stranger's, and I don't wish to risk it to help someone who may turn out to be completely unappreciative of the fact, and in fact may turn around and completely ruin MY life.

As it happens, I DO have some training to handle situations like this (having spent several years in the military) and I would still hesitate and think about it first.

[Nuje]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

So lets say someone died because no one came to their aid quickly enough.

Would you rather help them and maybe take a lawsuit or live with the fact that you might have been able to prevent their death by helping them.

It sound like Conroy22 had some training to handle a situation like this.
He should be able to forgive himself if he faced a lawsuit, but would proably have a lot harder time forgiving himself if someone died and he might have been able to do something about it.

Exactly.

Hell if I were a bit further down, I may have ran in, and ASKED someone in the know what I can do to help. If Conroy22 was the nearest person trained in first aid there, others around to help him can be nothing but beneficial.

As far as lawsuits and the junk, if someone ran in to help an injured me, but made something worse, I'd still thank them, unless they were being extremely careless and stupid.

Suing someone who tries to help you when you're in a serious accident, is like thanking a guy who had an affair with your wife, because it helped you meet your new, better wife. Sure, in the end it all worked out ok, but that wasn't the intent of the infidelity.

[zarrell]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

The problems I have with random folks just jumping in and helping are two fold. First, if you think you know what you are doing, and try to help and make the situation worse, you can become a target of a lawsuit as well.There are all sorts of funky laws that start to apply in weird ways about helping someone, conscious or unconscious, etc.

Second, how many folks actually have useful, up-to-date medical aid training? I see a LOT of idiots in my daily travels, and the last thing I would want is someone who thinks they know what they are doing but who really doesn't try to 'help' me.

Also, what disturbed me a bit about this was that despite folks whipping out iPhones and Tweeting and the like...almost no one got the situational information right. How many different rides was it said to be? How many different injury/fatality totals? If folks can't keep their heads about them enough to read the name off the ride and count the folks on the floor, as it were, you don't want them doing more complicated things like trying to help. You just want them out of the way so the real helpers can do their thing.

What? You have problems with people helping other people in obvious need? At the very least, making sure an injured person is comforted and kept from moving if there is a potential neck/back injury beats the hell out of snapping a few pictures and tweeting about it. Worrying about a lawsuit when another human being is injured should be the last thing that crosses anyone's mind. That and "Ooh, I've gotta get this on youtube"

[zarrell]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

Let's say you do help someone, and they decide to sue. The judge agrees with them, and you are damn near ruined by the settlement they get that you have to pay for deciding to try to be nice and help them. Can you afford to cover someone's "Pain and suffering" for the rest of their life, while trying to provide for YOUR family?

Would you still do it, or would you let them go?

Personally speaking, I'd let them go. As evil as it sounds, I value my life and lifestyle more than I do some stranger's, and I don't wish to risk it to help someone who may turn out to be completely unappreciative of the fact, and in fact may turn around and completely ruin MY life.

As it happens, I DO have some training to handle situations like this (having spent several years in the military) and I would still hesitate and think about it first.

Wow. Your first post was pretty terrible, but this may be the single most selfish thing I've ever read.

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

Let's say you do help someone, and they decide to sue. The judge agrees with them, and you are damn near ruined by the settlement they get that you have to pay for deciding to try to be nice and help them. Can you afford to cover someone's "Pain and suffering" for the rest of their life, while trying to provide for YOUR family?

Would you still do it, or would you let them go?

Personally speaking, I'd let them go. As evil as it sounds, I value my life and lifestyle more than I do some stranger's, and I don't wish to risk it to help someone who may turn out to be completely unappreciative of the fact, and in fact may turn around and completely ruin MY life.

As it happens, I DO have some training to handle situations like this (having spent several years in the military) and I would still hesitate and think about it first.

Have there been any examples where peoples lives have been ruined because they attempted to help a victim and were later sued?

All I know is if I saw someone in a sitation like this my first reaction would be to help them as much as I could.

You see it has if you helped them out and they turned on you that would ruin your life. I see it as if I didnt help them and they died that would ruin my life.

[jar_e]

I believe canada has a "good Samaritan act" no?

[Mirajj]

Originally Posted by jar_e

I believe canada has a "good Samaritan act" no?

Yep, and it's full of holes and loopholes and 'legal obfuscation' and all sorts of other things. Good Samaritan laws apply to a very strict sense of the term, and if you fall outside of it, you can be sued. Do a quick google search on "Good Samaritan lawsuits" and you can spend days reading about folks who thought they were helping, and ended up on the wrong end of a legal nightmare due to a technicality.

And while folks think it's selfish and mean...I value me and mine more than I do you and yours...as just about everyone does. It's simple human nature. I am not adverse to helping...but I will not put myself at risk to life and limb or financial future for someone who could be ungrateful enough to be around because of me.

This is why, after leaving the military, I didn't join the cops or the firemen or the EMT's. There are WAY to many sue-happy people out there, and it only takes finding one to ruin the rest of your life, good intentions on your part or no.

[Vox]

Originally Posted by jar_e

I believe canada has a "good Samaritan act" no?

Yes. Exactly what I was going to write.

"Good Samaritan Law or Doctrine:
a legal principle that prevents a rescuer who has voluntarily helped a victim in distress from being successfully sued for 'wrongdoing.' Its purpose is to keep people from being so reluctant to help a stranger in need for fear of legal repercussions if they made some mistake in treatment." - Canadianlawsite.ca

In fact, I saw some references online that suggests Quebec is the first jurisdiction in Canada to make it mandatory to help someone in need. Reminds me of the Seinfeld finale, actually.

[Beerfest]

Raft guide arrested for helping stranded rafer on Clear Creek

Clear Creek sheriff's deputies on Thursday arrested a rafting guide for swimming to a stranded young rafter who had tumbled from his boat on Clear Creek.
Ryan Daniel Snodgrass, a 28-year-old guide with Arkansas Valley Adventures rafting company, was charged with "obstructing government operations," said Clear Creek Sheriff Don Krueger.
"He was told not to go in the water, and he jumped in and swam over to the victim and jeopardized the rescue operation," said Krueger, noting that his office was deciding whether to file similar charges against another guide who was at the scene just downstream of Kermitts Roadhouse on U.S. 6.
Duke Bradford, owner of Arkansas Valley Adventures, said Snodgrass did the right thing by contacting the 13-year-old Texas girl immediately and not waiting for the county's search and rescue team to assemble ropes, rafts and rescuers.
"When you have someone in sight who has taken a long swim, you need to make contact immediately," said Bradford, a 15-year rafting guide and ski patroller from Summit County. "This is just silly. Ryan Snodgrass acted entirely appropriately. These guys came to the scene late and there was a rescue in progress. They came in and took over an existing rescue. To leave a patient on the side of a river while you get your gear out of the car and set up a rescue system you read about in a book is simply not good policy."
Snodgrass' raft flipped on the runoff-swelled Clear Creek around noon Thursday and the girl swam from the raft. Krueger said the girl was missing for 30 to 45 minutes while Snodgrass searched for her. He said she swam a half mile from the spot where the raft capsized.
Since it had been so long, Krueger said, it was no longer the rafting company's rescue.
"They should involve themselves up to a point. They lost contact. Whether they want to say they were trying to rescue their customer, when they had lost visual contact and had no idea where their customer has been for 30 to 45 minutes, then it becomes our issue."
Bradford said he would expect his guides to do the same thing again. His guides are professionals, he said, trained and certified in swiftwater rescue.
"To jump into water and navigate a river in a swiftwater rescue is common. You get into the river and swim. You have to do it," Branford said. "The fact these guys don't understand that is disturbing. Making contact immediately with your victim is essential. It's not about who is in charge. It's about the safety of a 13-year-old girl. You are going to do everything in your power to insure the safety of your guest, and if that means in Idaho Springs you get arrested, well I guess we'll just get arrested."

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_15278256?source=rss

Im not sure where this is at currently, but hears an example of a similar situation and a man getting charged.

[Vox]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

And while folks think it's selfish and mean...I value me and mine more than I do you and yours...as just about everyone does. It's simple human nature. I am not adverse to helping...but I will not put myself at risk to life and limb or financial future for someone who could be ungrateful enough to be around because of me.

This is why, after leaving the military, I didn't join the cops or the firemen or the EMT's. There are WAY to many sue-happy people out there, and it only takes finding one to ruin the rest of your life, good intentions on your part or no.

Kind of sounds like you are.

[Vox]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

Raft guide arrested for helping stranded rafer on Clear Creek



http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_15278256?source=rss

Im not sure where this is at currently, but hears an example of a similar situation and a man getting charged.

Except that even in your quote it clearly stated that the man was told by search and rescue (that was on the scene) NOT to go into the water and did so anyway. That is very different than helping someone out if you are the first one there.

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by Vox

Except that even in your quote it clearly stated that the man was told by search and rescue (that was on the scene) NOT to go into the water and did so anyway. That is very different than helping someone out if you are the first one there.

Thats true.
But still the girl had been in the water for a while.
Could you just stand there watching her struggle while search and rescue took there time.

Bradford said he would expect his guides to do the same thing again. His guides are professionals, he said, trained and certified in swiftwater rescue.

He was trained for the situation similar to Conroy22.

"To jump into water and navigate a river in a swiftwater rescue is common. You get into the river and swim. You have to do it," Branford said. "The fact these guys don't understand that is disturbing. Making contact immediately with your victim is essential. It's not about who is in charge. It's about the safety of a 13-year-old girl. You are going to do everything in your power to insure the safety of your guest, and if that means in Idaho Springs you get arrested, well I guess we'll just get arrested."

[Mirajj]

How about this one, then?

"
Such was the case with Lisa Torti, who is being sued for pulling a now-paralyzed friend from the wreckage of a Los Angeles car accident in 2004.
The victim's lawyers claim the Good Samaritan bumbled the rescue and caused injury by yanking her friend "like a rag doll" to safety.
But Torti -- now a 30-year-old interior designer from Las Vegas -- said she thought she had seen smoke and feared the car would explode. She claims she was only trying to help her friend, Alexandra Van Horn, and her own life has been adversely affected by the incident.
"I know [Van Horn] has a lot of financial issues and her life has changed," she said. "But it's not my fault. I can't be angry at her, only the path she has chosen to take. I can only pray it helps her."
"I don't have any more fight left," Torti told ABCNews.com, choking back tears. "It's really emotional.""


Source = http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6498405&page=1

[Mirajj]

Originally Posted by Vox

Kind of sounds like you are.

I am not adverse to helping...but I will not simply run in and try to help without first thinking through the consequences.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

And while folks think it's selfish and mean...I value me and mine more than I do you and yours...as just about everyone does. It's simple human nature. I am not adverse to helping...but I will not put myself at risk to life and limb or financial future for someone who could be ungrateful enough to be around because of me.

This is why, after leaving the military, I didn't join the cops or the firemen or the EMT's. There are WAY to many sue-happy people out there, and it only takes finding one to ruin the rest of your life, good intentions on your part or no.

After reading a statement like that, or anything else you have posted, I am thankful you chose not to enter emergency services. You sound like a bit of a selfish coward actually. Surprises me you were in the military.

I am no soldier, police officer, or firefighter. I do have advanced first aid however, I have been in 2 situations in my life, where I have had to use it. And a couple others where I have tried to assist, only to come across corpses. In one situation had I and another gentleman on the scene had not acted, someone would have died. Never, not for one second, in any instance, did I worry about my future or being sued. The focus was first and foremost trying to save someones life, or help someone in severe trauma.

Kudos to conroy22, what you did is awesome. Thank god it was you there, not mirajj.

[Nuje]

Ok, well I'm glad that there's a 99.9999487234% chance that if I'm ever seriously injured and in need of help, it will be anyone not "Mirajj" around. I realize that it's always a risk, but that's also the ones that are usually the most publicized. The good news ones where the rescuer isn't sued, are buried in the "good news" section of the paper, and are never given a headline. While Canada's legal system is a joke when it comes to convicting criminals, I like to think it's better at not giving such ridiculous suing lawsuits the light of day.

[stang]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

How about this one, then?

"
Such was the case with Lisa Torti, who is being sued for pulling a now-paralyzed friend from the wreckage of a Los Angeles car accident in 2004.
The victim's lawyers claim the Good Samaritan bumbled the rescue and caused injury by yanking her friend "like a rag doll" to safety.
But Torti -- now a 30-year-old interior designer from Las Vegas -- said she thought she had seen smoke and feared the car would explode. She claims she was only trying to help her friend, Alexandra Van Horn, and her own life has been adversely affected by the incident.
"I know [Van Horn] has a lot of financial issues and her life has changed," she said. "But it's not my fault. I can't be angry at her, only the path she has chosen to take. I can only pray it helps her."
"I don't have any more fight left," Torti told ABCNews.com, choking back tears. "It's really emotional.""


Source = http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6498405&page=1

Thats the USA

Try and find examples from Canada

[Vox]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

Thats true.
But still the girl had been in the water for a while.
Could you just stand there watching her struggle while search and rescue took there time.


He was trained for the situation similar to Conroy22.

Perhaps I misunderstand your premise. I read your post as trying to providing a reason that Conroy22 should NOT have assisted. That is what I disagree with. I applaud him for assisting.

[Vox]

Originally Posted by stang

Thats the USA

Try and find examples from Canada

Bingo. You saved me some typing.