World Cup South Africa, 2010 Thread

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by troutman

And how is that different than nearly every other team in the world?

Are drop kicks to the chest not worthy of red cards? NED played a bruising game.

I guess I'm misunderstanding you...
You called Locke's post biased which seemed to imply that you think Spain DIDN'T dive like Italy did in order to win. But now you're saying that Spain dives just like everyone else (Italy included), so it's ok when they do it.



And yes, kicks to the chest should be a red card. I thought I had made myself pretty clear on my opinion of the reffing that game. Not sure how it fits into a discussion about diving though.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Locke

People have to stop doing this and quit fellating the divers.

Possession doesnt mean anything. Its like hockey's '+/-' stat. Spain 'dominated possession.' Great. How much did they accomplish with it? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Being able to keep the ball is one thing, actually doing something with it is very much another.

Spain won very much the same way Italy won, they dived their way to the top and Iniesta was the worst cuplrit.

I cannot agree more.

Spain is plain old boring. I said the same thing about Barca during the CL league run (and victory) last year as well. Dinking it around with no intent is not attractive football nor will it ever be.

Iniesta is amazingly talented but I lost all respect for him due to his pathetic displays during the final. I think he needs "a tap on the ankle" in the true sense.

[nik-]

News Flash everyone! ... most of the games were boring.

Stop acting like Spain was the one out there dulling up the World Cup.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

I guess I'm misunderstanding you...
You called Locke's post biased which seemed to imply that you think Spain DIDN'T dive like Italy did in order to win. But now you're saying that Spain dives just like everyone else (Italy included), so it's ok when they do it.



And yes, kicks to the chest should be a red card. I thought I had made myself pretty clear on my opinion of the reffing that game. Not sure how it fits into a discussion about diving though.

Diving is a FIFA problem. I don't like it. To single out Spain is odd.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by nik-

News Flash everyone! ... most of the games were boring.

Stop acting like Spain was the one out there dulling up the World Cup.

I thought most of the knockout games that didn't involve Spain were pretty good.

URU-KOR
USA-GHA
ARG-MEX
ENG-GER
BRA-CHI
BRA-NED
URU-GHA
GER-ARG (bit of a blowout though)
URU-NED

and even the 3rd place match!

PAR-JAP
and
NED-SLK were kind of duds.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by troutman

Diving is a FIFA problem. I don't like it. To single out Spain is odd.

Spain dove excessively in that game - Netherlands didn't. That's why Spain is getting singled out. Granted, the dutch had their own type of dirty play...


As an aside, even though there is some truth to your statement, you could easily make a couple substitutions to your statement and I'm not sure you'd back it up anymore:
Diving is an NHL problem. I don't like it. To single out Vancouver is odd.

[North East Goon]

Cant we all just move on to Euro 2012 and how my beloved England should be heavy favourites for this tourney?

[North East Goon]

Holland was playing with fire in this match, you knew it was going to catch up with them eventually.

[Locke]

Whatever it was an awful final, just have to get past it.

World Cup worst team:

Robert Green - GK
Right back: Jonas Gutierrez/Nicolas Otamendi (Argentina)
Centre back: John Terry (England)
Centre back: William Gallas (France)
Left back: Patrice Evra (France)

Centre midfield: Gennaro Gattuso (Italy)
Centre midfield: Felipe Melo (Brazil)

Right wing: Franck Ribery (France)
Left wing: Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)

Striker: Wayne Rooney (England)
Striker: Nicolas Anelka (France)

Substitutes: Federico Marchetti (Italy), Gabriel Heinze (Argentina), Fabio Cannavaro (Italy), Eric Abidal (France), Giorgios Karagounis (Greece), Claudio Marchisio (Italy), Kaka (Brazil), Sidney Govou (France), Alberto Gilardino (Italy), Fernando Torres (Spain).

Manager: Raymond Domenech (France)

Read the qualifier here:
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-c...cc=5901&ver=us

[mmanzz]

Like GirlySports I typically root for the Brazilians in Soccer and I did again in this one. Once they were out, i went for the team I had my money on and that was Spain.

Yes, Spain did not score many goals but they did generate quite a few chances in their games, anyone who has seen Torres play for Spain 2008 and Liverpool can see that had he been in form they would have probably scored a lot more goals. Its a testament to the depth and talent of the Spanish team that they were able to win despite the best striker in the world being in very poor form.

I disagree with comments about possession being irrelevent, the fact is that in every game spain played the opposition tended to significantly weaken by the 55-70 minute mark due to all that ball chasing. Spain typically scored in these periods of opposition fatigue.

Spain was a well deserved winner and to my mind, although they won by small margins in recent years only the 2002 Brazilians(who won with the goalie having a broken arm) were more dominant in a world cup victory.

[Bill Bumface]

I loved the commentator when NED finally put a couple passes together: "They have to be careful here or a football match might break out"

[SuperMatt18]

Anybody who actually thinks that that Italy team in 2006 was "lucky" and the worst team to win the World Cup is just being biased and ignorant.

They had a dominating defense in that tourney, and the best defender (Cannavaro) and keeper (Buffon) in the World at the time.

Gattuso was one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and Pirlo was in his prime as a creative playmaker. Plus they had a few great players at striker in Totti, Toni, and Del Piero. Grosso and Zambrotta were also both clutch in that tournament.

If you go back and watch those games Italy was a deserved champion and were not outplayed in any of those games except for maybe periods of the final. But even then Italy scored two good goals in the final (one disallowed) and France scored one on a bogus penalty.

That Italian team had what I think was a 27 game undefeated streak going into and following that tournament and were in no way the worst team to win the tournament.

Their fall since that point in time makes them look worse in retrospect but make no mistake at that time that group of Italian players were all at their primes, working as a great team and deserving winners.


But personally to me any team that wins the World Cup is deserving and it is impossible to sort who is the weakest team. It is impossible to compare since the teams do not get to play each other and with everybody's biases they tend to hate on teams they do not like and rank them lower.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Locke

People have to stop doing this and quit fellating the divers.

Possession doesnt mean anything. Its like hockey's '+/-' stat. Spain 'dominated possession.' Great. How much did they accomplish with it? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Being able to keep the ball is one thing, actually doing something with it is very much another.

Spain won very much the same way Italy won, they dived their way to the top and Iniesta was the worst cuplrit.

How much did they accomplish? They won the world cup. Not really understanding how you think possession doesn't mean anything. It means everything. It means you control the flow of the play, you create chances, you limit opposition chances.

Holland knew they didn't have the skill to play a possession game with Spain, so they tried to bully their way through it. And the possession game still won.

Holland were a disgrace yesterday. A team that was scared of playing football against Spain.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by Igottago

How much did they accomplish? They won the world cup. Not really understanding how you think possession doesn't mean anything. It means everything. It means you control the flow of the play, you create chances, you limit opposition chances.

Holland knew they didn't have the skill to play a possession game with Spain, so they tried to bully their way through it. And the possession game still won.

Holland were a disgrace yesterday. A team that was scared of playing football against Spain.

No it doesn't. Argentina had the same possession advantage against the Germans as the Spaniards did against the Dutch and they lost 4-0. England held the possession advantage against the Germans and lost by 3.

Spain killed the Swiss in possession with a 63-37% advantage, and they lost.

It doesn't mean everything, far from it. A tactically astute manager such as Low can murder possession style teams with a sly counter attack.

The Dutch had the winning formula yesterday. Spain wasn't going to be dominated in the possession column, and we already saw the Swiss beat the Spaniards in a similar fashion. I'd argue that if Robben barried either of the breakaways he had(or was rightfully awarded a dangerous FK, with Puyol being sent off) then we would be christening Van Marwijk's brilliance.

Spain is always going to win the possession battle, the Oranje were skilled enough to play a possession game with them, but rightfully tried to play a counter attacking style. Imagine the Dutch playing possession game with the speed of Villa, Navas/Pedro,Iniesta and Ramos charging up the right with the passing range of Alonso and Xavi behind them. The second they make a poor pass they're dead. Matijsen, Heitinga and Van Bronckhorst are all slow. Van Der Wiel would be the only with the pace to keep up but Ramos and Navas/Pedro played on the right flank as opposed to Van Der Wiel's left. I can assure you this game would have looked a lot more like Portugal-North Korea than the close game it was had they played the way you suggested.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Dagger

I'd argue that if Robben barried either of the breakaways he had(or was rightfully awarded a dangerous FK, with Puyol being sent off) then we would be christening Van Marwijk's brilliance.

I'm still amazed that wasn't called. It just goes to show you, fighting through checks and not flopping doesn't pay.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

I'm still amazed that wasn't called. It just goes to show you, fighting through checks and not flopping doesn't pay.

For all the flack that Robben gets about being a whiny diver, when he really needed to dive he went the honourable way and tried to fight through.

[mykalberta]

That was a perfect reason why you need to dive in soccer, fall or not there should have been a foul given there.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Locke

Possession doesnt mean anything. Its like hockey's '+/-' stat. Spain 'dominated possession.' Great. How much did they accomplish with it? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Being able to keep the ball is one thing, actually doing something with it is very much another.

A better comparison would be possession soccer and playing the trap in hockey.
It's a style of play certain team choose to play and like trapping in hockey it can be successful if done right by the right team.

Spain demonstrated just that, as does Barcelona, Arsenal and other club teams.

Sure, other styles such as counter attacking, and a ton of other strategies can be effective too, and that's the beauty of the sport. The chess match that it is and the large number of ways a manager and team can approach their strategy.

Saying possession doesn't mean anything tells me you likely don't watch or play much soccer. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of the sport.

Spain's "useless" possession soccer is the reason there was 15 yellow cards yesterday and Holland ended up with 10 men.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Spain's "useless" possession soccer is the reason there was 15 yellow cards yesterday and Holland ended up with 10 men.

That had nothing to do with possession, and all to do with a brutal dive by Iniesta.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

That had nothing to do with possession, and all to do with a brutal dive by Iniesta.

He went down, but he was pulled by the last man as well. It was the right call.

And what about the first yellow to Heitinga, all of the other yellows, and what should have been a red to De Jong in the first half?
You don't think Spain's style of play had anything to do with these?