That's where true Christianity differs from other religions in the world, or the "Christianity" that you hear preached especially in America. Other religions are a set of rules that you must follow in order to win favour with the god. Christianity was not meant to be like that, and it is truly unfortunate and disappointing that so many have given the world this negative perception.
This is the only thing I really disagree with from where you are coming from. Christianity is not that exceptional among world religions in terms of the nature of salvation or rules or lack thereof and Christians need to stop perpetuating misconceptions like that if they want to be ernest and forthcoming.
I am curious about what you define as "true" Christianity? Every religion in every form and iteration preached or worshiped by every person often claims it is the true religion. Is a Christian conservative redneck zealot in Alabama not going to recieve the same salvation as someone who worships "true" Christianity whatever it is that you are trying to convey?
You see, Cheese is an Orthodox Darwininan whilst Thor is a Branch Dawkinsian. I myself am an adherent of Latter Day Schopenhauer (which is the true path).
Therefore, it's not mockery but statements of fact when one is correct.
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That is a fantastic post. It really sums up what I think a lot of atheists/agnostics or basically "unbelievers in Christ" feel when it comes to Christianity and religions as a whole.
Frankly, it really is too bad that Christianity in general has such a bad rap like this. It is an example of some ruining it for everyone.
Christ did not intend this for his church. As Christians we are to love the Lord with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves. That basically means denying ourselves and wants and acting out in love, in whichever form that may be. It's being selfless.
Where most go wrong is here: We follow Jesus' commands BECAUSE he loved us and saved us, not IN ORDER to earn salvation and "be a Christian."
That's where you hear the abominable preaching of: "Thou shalt not be gay, or thou shalt not do stem cell research, or thou shalt not commit adultery." Unfortunately, the belief here is that as long as you follow everything the Bible says and follow a bunch of rules, you will go to heaven and be saved from hell.
It doesn't work that way. Commands in the Bible are there to help Christians live the life that God intended them to. You follow them because you were saved and your eternity secured, not in order to earn it.
When you become saved, God gives you a brand new heart and attitude, and the Holy Spirit guides you and helps you to make the right decisions as you go through life. It's like a horse that is broken, you WANT to follow Christ's commandments and you desire to do the right thing.
That's where true Christianity differs from other religions in the world, or the "Christianity" that you hear preached especially in America. Other religions are a set of rules that you must follow in order to win favour with the god. Christianity was not meant to be like that, and it is truly unfortunate and disappointing that so many have given the world this negative perception.
Preachers, especially television preachers, should be preaching that unbelievers give their hearts to the Lord first and then follow His commands later as the Spirit convicts us in order to clean up the parts of our lives that God sees as non-beneficial. Instead, they are doing it backwards and telling people that they can earn their salvation by doing good works and "not being gay" and such, and then maybe God won't be so angry with them and make them rot in hell.
This is exactly it. Unfortunatly there are some that tend to give Christianity a bad name and as a Christian I've been disappointed by some of those people. However, there are a lot of others who are not in the spot light that are teaching what Christianity is really about.
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I don't fight Christianity as a whole, I fight against the religious thinking pervasive in this world in all religions. Its a outdated idea created by humans and still exists today because of the centuries of church doctrine and in many instances state control by church and state.
What makes religion so pervasive in the modern western world is not so much the state, but it's place in societies and cultures. It is something that people grow up in and it is a focal point for communities. I find that increasingly ethnic groups and immigrants especially in Canada gravitate toward ethnic churches/temples/mosques, etc. even if it is not their natural religion but because it gives them a sense of community that modern life otherwise does not afford them. It's very hard to challenge and think critically about beliefs engrained in you throughout your formative years and where all your families and friends are also deeply entrenched and that plays into the "shunning" factor your spoke about.
I don't feel the government or state really plays a role in this anymore in today's western societies. Europe is mostly atheist and increasing amounts of North America are liberalizing. Politicians pander to religion to win votes, but religion is entrenched in the community and family and for many people, that gives them their purpose in life and a verification of their existence because many people are afraid to think of alternatives. People always like to believe their way of thinking is right and will stubbornly continue to do so, even at the expense or exclusion of others.
This is exactly it. Unfortunatly there are some that tend to give Christianity a bad name and as a Christian I've been disappointed by some of those people. However, there are a lot of others who are not in the spot light that are teaching what Christianity is really about.
That disappointment that you feel for people who are not "true" Christians and judgement is one of the things that turn people off religion. Tell me then, what is it really about? What makes those people who are teaching that more correct than others? Look at all the schisms in the Church and the millions of groups and denominations out there all claiming that some are right, some are wrong, some are cults, etc. It's just human nature playing out. What gives you or anyone else the right to say which is true and everyone else is condenmed?
This is the only thing I really disagree with from where you are coming from. Christianity is not that exceptional among world religions.
I am curious about what you define as "true" Christianity? Every religion in every form and iteration preached or worshiped by every person often claims it is the true religion. Is a Christian conservative redneck zealot in Alabama not going to recieve the same salvation as someone who worships "true" Christianity whatever it is that you are trying to convey?
No, and I apologize that it came across that way. I am not trying to be holier than thou and saying that my form of Christianity is the "true" one. Everyone thinks that of course.
I just feel that for the past few hundred years Biblical doctrine has commonly held that salvation was earned or retained by works. Based on this, it makes a lot of sense that the angle preachers have taken is that "clean up your life or you are going to hell!" Yet the Bible speaks a lot about love and a loving God who shows mercy and compassion. Together, those two trains of thought contradict each other.
No wonder non-Christians take such a dim view of Christianity. When you witness blatant hypocrisy like that it's pretty hard to believe in.
Lately, the idea that salvation is a gift of God, and that the commandments follow voluntarily rather than as a means of obtaining salvation, has become more prevalent in Christian circles. The Bible supports this doctrine as far as I understand it and it freed me from great amounts of bondage. You have no idea how difficult it is to live life thinking that God hates you and that you have to choke the joy out of life in order to follow a bunch of pre-set rules in order to get to heaven. No wonder no one wants a part of it!
At the end of the day, I think it is a personal thing. God will look at each Christian's heart and based on that person's knowledge of right and wrong and what that person feels the Lord convicted them to do and not do in life, will determine that person's eternal destiny. Basically, did that person truly love the Lord with all their heart, seek to do the Spirit's will in everything, and love others as much as themselves?
So then, phrasing it as "true Christianity" was not the best way to do it. But following this particular doctrine as a Christian is going to be a much better way to experience joy in life, do God's work, and most importantly - win souls over for Christ instead of turning them off and disgusting them.
That's where true Christianity differs from other religions in the world, or the "Christianity" that you hear preached especially in America. Other religions are a set of rules that you must follow in order to win favour with the god. Christianity was not meant to be like that, and it is truly unfortunate and disappointing that so many have given the world this negative perception.
Sorry for spamming your post...but these comments made this the perfect opportunity for these vids becuase they say it as well as anyone...
and this...
Last edited by Cheese; 07-09-2010 at 04:02 PM.
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This is the only thing I really disagree with from where you are coming from. Christianity is not that exceptional among world religions in terms of the nature of salvation or rules or lack thereof and Christians need to stop perpetuating misconceptions like that if they want to be ernest and forthcoming.
I am curious about what you define as "true" Christianity? Every religion in every form and iteration preached or worshiped by every person often claims it is the true religion. Is a Christian conservative redneck zealot in Alabama not going to recieve the same salvation as someone who worships "true" Christianity whatever it is that you are trying to convey?
Christianity is about accepting Gods gift of salvation. It's not about going around and judging other people and what they are doing. What a person does is ultimately between him/her and God and it's not my place to lay judgement. So your question about the redneck in Alabama it really depends on whether they have accepted Christ into their life and asked for forgiveness of there sins and I don't know that.
No, and I apologize that it came across that way. I am not trying to be holier than thou and saying that my form of Christianity is the "true" one. Everyone thinks that of course.
I just feel that for the past few hundred years Biblical doctrine has commonly held that salvation was earned or retained by works. Based on this, it makes a lot of sense that the angle preachers have taken is that "clean up your life or you are going to hell!" Yet the Bible speaks a lot about love and a loving God who shows mercy and compassion. Together, those two trains of thought contradict each other.
No wonder non-Christians take such a dim view of Christianity. When you witness blatant hypocrisy like that it's pretty hard to believe in.
Lately, the idea that salvation is a gift of God, and that the commandments follow voluntarily rather than as a means of obtaining salvation, has become more prevalent in Christian circles. The Bible supports this doctrine as far as I understand it and it freed me from great amounts of bondage. You have no idea how difficult it is to live life thinking that God hates you and that you have to choke the joy out of life in order to follow a bunch of pre-set rules in order to get to heaven. No wonder no one wants a part of it!
At the end of the day, I think it is a personal thing. God will look at each Christian's heart and based on that person's knowledge of right and wrong and what that person feels the Lord convicted them to do and not do in life, will determine that person's eternal destiny. Basically, did that person truly love the Lord with all their heart, seek to do the Spirit's will in everything, and love others as much as themselves?
So then, phrasing it as "true Christianity" was not the best way to do it. But following this particular doctrine as a Christian is going to be a much better way to experience joy in life, do God's work, and most importantly - win souls over for Christ instead of turning them off and disgusting them.
Once again you are able to phrase it so much better than I.
That disappointment that you feel for people who are not "true" Christians and judgement is one of the things that turn people off religion. Tell me then, what is it really about? What makes those people who are teaching that more correct than others? Look at all the schisms in the Church and the millions of groups and denominations out there all claiming that some are right, some are wrong, some are cults, etc. It's just human nature playing out. What gives you or anyone else the right to say which is true and everyone else is condenmed?
That's not what I meant. I'm not judging those people, however, have felt that some peoples actions who proclaim to be Christians are harmful to Christianity as a whole. I would say I'm more saddened when that happens. Once again I'm not judging. I'm sharing my belief which I have faith is correct. If someone chooses not to have the same belief as I that is there choice and it isn't my place to judge.
Lately, the idea that salvation is a gift of God, and that the commandments follow voluntarily rather than as a means of obtaining salvation, has become more prevalent in Christian circles. The Bible supports this doctrine as far as I understand it and it freed me from great amounts of bondage. You have no idea how difficult it is to live life thinking that God hates you and that you have to choke the joy out of life in order to follow a bunch of pre-set rules in order to get to heaven. No wonder no one wants a part of it!
What you said is just more evidence for the fact that Christianity has been evolving and changing for the past 2000 years and it's interpretation and application changes with every generation and culture. What Christianity is to you then, seems to be what you take for yourself as applicable doctrine and that's no different from all those people who have taken it upon themselves to re-define their faith for themselves over 2000 years...many of them starting new religions themselves.
That's fine and religion is great as a personal thing. What secular or irrreligious people want is the same thing, for religion to be a personal thing, not an organized beast that imposes it's beliefs or practices and judgements upon state and society as a whole, or even on a personal level between people interacting in daily life.
I used to enjoy making fun of mormon beliefs and culture (thanks South Park) but then I met a few and became close friends with some and I've developed an enourmous respect for what they have and what they've built or what holds them together or what brings them happiness. Even if I still believe deep down that everything they believe is totally 100% absurd, it's their way of life and I can't help but respect that and it is the same toward any religion for me, as long as they don't impose their beliefs on others.
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I just feel that for the past few hundred years Biblical doctrine has commonly held that salvation was earned or retained by works. Based on this, it makes a lot of sense that the angle preachers have taken is that "clean up your life or you are going to hell!" Yet the Bible speaks a lot about love and a loving God who shows mercy and compassion. Together, those two trains of thought contradict each other.
Well both trains of thought do come from the Bible
Quote:
Originally Posted by arloiginla
Lately, the idea that salvation is a gift of God, and that the commandments follow voluntarily rather than as a means of obtaining salvation, has become more prevalent in Christian circles.
But a soft sell is still a sell. Salvation may be a gift, but the message still is that everyone is insufficient, everyone is irredeemable, everyone falls short, and only by believing this one particular belief can you hope to find value and attain salvation, otherwise you are doomed to an infinite punishment for a finite infraction.
If I tell the girl I love that if she loves me back and accepts me as her husband I'll give her a beautiful life, and if I tell her that if she doesn't accept me that I'll lock her in the basement for the rest of her life, my "gift" of a beautiful life may be a gift, but it's hard to see it that way from her point of view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arloiginla
At the end of the day, I think it is a personal thing. God will look at each Christian's heart and based on that person's knowledge of right and wrong and what that person feels the Lord convicted them to do and not do in life, will determine that person's eternal destiny. Basically, did that person truly love the Lord with all their heart, seek to do the Spirit's will in everything, and love others as much as themselves?
What about non-Christians? If a non-Christian lives an identical life, loved others as much as themselves, but without the loving the Lord part, they get eternal punishment for it? The billions who never heard of Jesus? Or those who did but made the best decision they could based on what they knew but just happened to be the wrong one? Any god that would eternally punish someone for making an honest decision but the wrong one is no god at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arloiginla
So then, phrasing it as "true Christianity" was not the best way to do it. But following this particular doctrine as a Christian is going to be a much better way to experience joy in life, do God's work, and most importantly - win souls over for Christ instead of turning them off and disgusting them.
And they hope that their particular doctrine isn't actually the wrong one, that by going by the soft sell they aren't damning millions to an eternal punishment.
That's the thing, there is no way to choose between any doctrine and another.. judging them by what turns people on and off isn't a good measure, since what people like and don't like changes over time.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
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Christianity is about accepting Gods gift of salvation. It's not about going around and judging other people and what they are doing. What a person does is ultimately between him/her and God and it's not my place to lay judgement. So your question about the redneck in Alabama it really depends on whether they have accepted Christ into their life and asked for forgiveness of there sins and I don't know that.
So salvation is about a gift and not about what people do, but then you say it IS about what they do (since they asked for forgiveness for their sins).
But if we're fallen creatures with a sinful nature, then we cannot help but sin.
It's like a doctor offering the gift of a cure for a disease the doctor gave you in the first place.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Well both trains of thought do come from the Bible
If I tell the girl I love that if she loves me back and accepts me as her husband I'll give her a beautiful life, and if I tell her that if she doesn't accept me that I'll lock her in the basement for the rest of her life, my "gift" of a beautiful life may be a gift, but it's hard to see it that way from her point of view.
You are basing that on human equality. If you created everything in the world including the girl, that would be completely acceptable, especially if the girl was perfect when you created her but defied you purposely and rejected you.
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What about non-Christians? If a non-Christian lives an identical life, loved others as much as themselves, but without the loving the Lord part, they get eternal punishment for it? The billions who never heard of Jesus? Or those who did but made the best decision they could based on what they knew but just happened to be the wrong one? Any god that would eternally punish someone for making an honest decision but the wrong one is no god at all.
Completely true. I have no doubt whatsoever that those who have never heard of Jesus or Christianity, or salvation, will be judged on what they do know and not what they don't. The God I believe in would do no such thing, because it would be contrary to His just nature.
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And they hope that their particular doctrine isn't actually the wrong one, that by going by the soft sell they aren't damning millions to an eternal punishment.
Wrong. It has nothing to do with a soft or hard sell. Those who are offered God's gift of salvation and do not accept it, will face eternal punishment apart from God, since they chose to be apart from Him during life. That doesn't change. But telling people their problems rather than offering them a gift that will change them forever, is not the best way to find converts IMO. In today's society we don't like to be spoken to in that way. 200 years ago that approach might have won many souls for the Lord. But in today's Western society I think it's a safe assumption that it doesn't go over very well.
Quote:
That's the thing, there is no way to choose between any doctrine and another.. judging them by what turns people on and off isn't a good measure, since what people like and don't like changes over time.
I didn't judge one doctrine and say that those who believe in the "old" way of thinking (you're going to hell! stop being gay!) aren't really Christians. I think it is personal - each of us will be accountable to God Himself and it won't matter what doctrine we held, it will only matter whether or not we accepted His gift of salvation and strove to follow His will in our lives.
I wasn't judging which doctrine turns people on and off being right or wrong. Rather, I simply said that one doctrine is more likely to win over unbelievers and therefore acting in love in todays society, than the other, which seems to be doing more harm than good.
Location: In a land without pants, or war, or want. But mostly we care about the pants.
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The problem is that it's pretty hard to "respectfully" argue someone's belief system. These are core values you are challenging, and there is really no polite way to say "Your premises are entirely wrong and your delusions fatally cloud your thinking."
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Better educated sadness than oblivious joy.
So salvation is about a gift and not about what people do, but then you say it IS about what they do (since they asked for forgiveness for their sins).
But if we're fallen creatures with a sinful nature, then we cannot help but sin.
It's like a doctor offering the gift of a cure for a disease the doctor gave you in the first place.
God did not give us sin like a disease. He created us perfect, not fallen creatures. But He gave us a free will, so that we aren't forced to follow him.
But Adam and Eve messed up and chose to reject that perfection and God. They separated themselves from God and therefore gave birth to a people that were born fallen from God. Hence the need for a Savior, someone who could make things right again.
This is why so many people make the argument of "How can a loving God create so much evil in the world?" Simple. God didn't create evil, he allowed it to happen. It was us humans that created it.
Once you become a Christian, the Holy Spirit lives in you. You are reconciled to God and are no longer a fallen creature. This Spirit guides you in order to live a perfect life worthy of the Lord and doing His work. That being said, we still have a free will and oftentimes this comes into play, when we choose to do what we know is displeasing in the Lord's sight. The Spirit will convict us if that is the case and we can always ask for forgiveness which is freely granted. The Holy Spirit is supernatural and the more time we spend with the Lord in devotions and whatnot, the closer we become to His spirit and the less likely we are to get sucked into the making wrong decisions.
You are basing that on human equality. If you created everything in the world including the girl, that would be completely acceptable, especially if the girl was perfect when you created her but defied you purposely and rejected you.
And if that is the true nature of the creator, that is not someone I want to associate with. If you created a beautiful person full of life and vigor but who simply wanted freedom to live the way she wanted and she rejected you, how can you claim to love her if your reaction is to condemn her to eternal unending excruciating punishment?
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Wrong. It has nothing to do with a soft or hard sell. Those who are offered God's gift of salvation and do not accept it, will face eternal punishment apart from God, since they chose to be apart from Him during life. That doesn't change. But telling people their problems rather than offering them a gift that will change them forever, is not the best way to find converts IMO. In today's society we don't like to be spoken to in that way. 200 years ago that approach might have won many souls for the Lord. But in today's Western society I think it's a safe assumption that it doesn't go over very well.
It never goes over well to tell people they are doomed because you are right and they are wrong. It's fear mongering. What about those billions and billions of people throughout human history that lived full and loving and good lives accomplishing great things within their community, building great familes and great societies...but were not privy to Christianity because they lived in other parts of the world where it is not part of the state or culture? I guess they were condemned from birth then to suffer for eternity.
Quote:
But Adam and Eve messed up and chose to reject that perfection and God. They separated themselves from God and therefore gave birth to a people that were born fallen from God. Hence the need for a Savior, someone who could make things right again.
So two people from the beginning of time got curious (one of those most important human traits) and therefore the over hundred billion people that have lived in human history are therefore judged by their actions?
It never goes over well to tell people they are doomed because you are right and they are wrong. It's fear mongering. What about those billions and billions of people throughout human history that lived full and loving and good lives accomplishing great things within their community, building great familes and great societies...but were not privy to Christianity because they lived in other parts of the world where it is not part of the state or culture? I guess they were condemned from birth then to suffer for eternity.
Wrong, I think I already explained that those who were not privy to Christianity and simply lived their lives to the best of their abilities based on what they knew, would go to heaven. No just God would condemn someone from birth. We all have a chance to secure heaven as an eternal destiny. We will be judged based on what we do know, not based on what we don't.
