Its interesting you say you believe in evolution yet you can't understand how we get all this complexity? Thats evolution
If not for a God I would agree that the two seem inconsistent. However, I believe there is a God who used evolution as his tool for creation, which would explain the complexity.
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Most people don't know this though.. I mean pastors are taught it at seminary, but when they get to churches they seem to teach mostly from a devotional point of view, they don't touch anything that the past 300 years of Biblical scholarship has worked out.
So most don't have any cognitive dissonance, because they haven't read the gospels horizontally, or struggled with the discrepancies, or know that many of the books were written fraudulently (many of the Pauline letters weren't authored by Paul), etc etc. As far as they know the Bible is inerrant because they haven't seen any different.
It's too bad most of the posters aren't like you and in these threads we always degenerate into simple Christian/Atheist bashing from people who have little knowledge of the other side. It'd be nice if we could have an intellectual discussion on things like this and the discrepancies between synoptic gospels and John, apocryphal gospels, Paulism, discussions of the Torah, etc. I miss Textcritic in these threads, he was the only real scholar on these matters that I know of in CP.
Last edited by Hack&Lube; 07-09-2010 at 01:20 PM.
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Its because athiests aren't bound by morals and ethics that aren't intrinsic to humanity. I don't kill, rape, steal, etc, but I can have as many sex partners as I want and I don't feel the slightest bit guilty about it. Nor not going to a church on Sundays; it doesn't bother me. I eat meat on "Good Friday" and don't care. I don't feel the white bearded guy in the sky is sending me to eternal damnation for not donating money to his cause. I would also use a Bible/Koran/whatever page to roll a smoke and not care, although that is bordering on hyperbole. Lol.
So these are good reasons to bash and ridicule Christianity? Just because Christians believe something different than athiests?
I'm not sure what Norm meant and some of his posts do seem a bit arrogant to me, but as a Christian this is my belief. Not sure if this is what he meant.
I think it's impossible that this wonderful body of mine (granted I could lose a few pounds) could exist in such a complex, delicately balanced world that seems perfectly created for us. That all of this could come essentially from nothing seems to me to be a greater leap of faith than the possibility that there could be a creator who is responsible for all of this. Look around you (or in the mirror) at the enormous complexity of the world, all of the creatures that occupy it and the enormous vastness of space around this world and maybe you'll see my point. How else could this have come about?
I do think that God and science can exist in harmony. I believe in evolution as God's tool for creation.
No other possibility makes more sense to me than that.
I do expect to be blasted for this. Be gentle.
Even when I was 15 years old in Church when people would tell me about how perfect our bodies were or how majestic the mountains and the natural world was around us as evidence of creation, I could never buy it. I saw only fragile, imperfect biology in a pretty grotesque body full of strange features and vestigial organs that we only find beautiful due to evolution (even though I am pretty handsome ). I saw the mountains as a process of tectonic chaos as well as all of nature and the world around us stemming from life gone wild through mutation and breeding taking over the world in chaotic and random processes. We are only conditioned to see things as beautiful because of evolution.
I could accept religion and worshipped for other rationales, but I couldn't for this one. It seemed far too simplistic, short-sighted, and all too human.
You could never convince me of God's existence by fiat, by the fact that our world and the universe exists and to our eyes, it appears to be wonderful and perfectly ordered. Science has shown us that it is in fact, usually the opposite. That doesn't preclude the existence of God, just I could never maintain faith for those reasons.
I think it's impossible that this wonderful body of mine (granted I could lose a few pounds) could exist in such a complex, delicately balanced world that seems perfectly created for us. That all of this could come essentially from nothing seems to me to be a greater leap of faith than the possibility that there could be a creator who is responsible for all of this. Look around you (or in the mirror) at the enormous complexity of the world, all of the creatures that occupy it and the enormous vastness of space around this world and maybe you'll see my point. How else could this have come about?
Well strictly speaking this is simply an argument from personal ignorance.. "I think it's impossible" does not equate to "It is impossible". So while poetic it's not really a valid argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctordestiny
I do think that God and science can exist in harmony. I believe in evolution as God's tool for creation.
No other possibility makes more sense to me than that.
I do expect to be blasted for this. Be gentle.
And that's fine, if people want to think of evolution as a tool of god's, that's fine. In the same way that gravity is also a tool.. god doesn't sit around moving the planets around by hand, god created gravity to do it. God doesn't sit around creating each lifeform by hand, god created evolution to do that.
But as has been pointed out, that is more like a deist than a theist. The idea that humans evolved from earlier life forms kind of goes against the whole Adam/Eve/original sin idea (unless you take that as a metaphor). Though Catholics have the idea of ensoulment.. life evolved and eventually a species got to the point that god gave them souls. To try and bridge the two together I guess.
That would make it easier to explain the terrible design you see in nature as well, and the huge amounts of suffering and pain and death in the animal world... I find it very difficult to say god specifically created all the species as they are and resolving that with the pain and death and bad design (almost makes god into a sadist), whereas a god that just created evolution and let it run its path makes more sense with what's observed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames
After looking at some of the posts on this board I can say that it's too bad Christians are not afforded the same luxery. Not that the Christians on this board are being killed or banished but certainly ridiculed. It's a shame how a discussion about religion can be turned into Christian bashing.
And I'm sure I'll be bashed for even posting this.
I don't do much bashing myself, but it goes with the territory.. believe something and someone else is going to bash it. Like the Flames? Too bad, other fans bash you. Liberal? Get ready to read liberal bashing in the paper, and see political cartoons that target liberals.
I guess my question is do you think all of that should be gone? No bashing Canucks Fans? Can't bash NDP party members? Nerds can't bash jocks? Pirates and Ninjas have to live in harmony?
I think it's just a case of not taking the bashing too seriously..
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
It's too bad most of the posters aren't like you and in these threads we always degenerate into simple Christian/Atheist bashing from people who have little knowledge of the other side. It'd be nice if we could have an intellectual discussion on things like this and the discrepancies between synoptic gospels and John, apocryphal gospels, Paulism, discussions of the Torah, etc. I miss Textcritic in these reads, he was the only real scholar on these matters that I know of in CP.
*flex*
I'm just too much of a wimp to get into confrontations is more the case
Yeah, I miss Textcritic in these threads too, but really it's so much of a waste of time, especially since making well researched and supported arguments takes 100x the amount of time it takes to make a frivolous claim.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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After looking at some of the posts on this board I can say that it's too bad Christians are not afforded the same luxery. Not that the Christians on this board are being killed or banished but certainly ridiculed. It's a shame how a discussion about religion can be turned into Christian bashing.
And I'm sure I'll be bashed for even posting this.
Ha Ha! STUPID JESUS!
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I don't do much bashing myself, but it goes with the territory.. believe something and someone else is going to bash it. Like the Flames? Too bad, other fans bash you. Liberal? Get ready to read liberal bashing in the paper, and see political cartoons that target liberals.
I guess my question is do you think all of that should be gone? No bashing Canucks Fans? Can't bash NDP party members? Nerds can't bash jocks? Pirates and Ninjas have to live in harmony?
I think it's just a case of not taking the bashing too seriously..
I do think when it comes to certain things like peoples beliefs, lifestyles, etc. there should be some respect and a civil conversation. I don't think everything should fall into the bashing entitled category. For instance I think it's inappropriate to bash people who are gay just as much as I think it's inappropriate to bash someone because of their religion.
I'm not saying you bash much some some of the posts on here really don't lend themselves to an intelligent discussion. But asking for some people to behave more civilized is too much to ask for I guess.
I do think when it comes to certain things like peoples beliefs, lifestyles, etc. there should be some respect and a civil conversation.
Sure, but it's not a one or the other proposition.. There's a time for civility, and there's a time for getting a little rowdy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames
I don't think everything should fall into the bashing entitled category. For instance I think it's inappropriate to bash people who are gay just as much as I think it's inappropriate to bash someone because of their religion.
But how do you choose then what gets excluded from bashing? The two things you've compared are vastly different.. bashing someone for being gay is closer to bashing someone for being black than it is bashing religion. And bashing religion is closer to bashing political leaning than it is bashing someone for being gay. One you choose, the other is just something you are.
Plus there's a fine distinction between bashing someone and bashing something. Just because someone is bashing a religion (or a specific belief of a specific religion), doesn't mean they're bashing the people. Hate the sin, love the sinner kind of thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames
I'm not saying you bash much some some of the posts on here really don't lend themselves to an intelligent discussion. But asking for some people to behave more civilized is too much to ask for I guess.
Maybe, maybe not. Try asking. Start an intelligent discussion and see what happens. There'll always be people of any opinion that simply want to shout their opinion as loud as they can, but that shouldn't dissuade a good discussion IMO.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
The best thing is atheists have the right to speak..speak out loud as a matter of fact...without fear of death or banishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin Flames
After looking at some of the posts on this board I can say that it's too bad Christians are not afforded the same luxery. Not that the Christians on this board are being killed or banished but certainly ridiculed. It's a shame how a discussion about religion can be turned into Christian bashing.
And I'm sure I'll be bashed for even posting this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traddy
Its because athiests aren't bound by morals and ethics that aren't intrinsic to humanity. I don't kill, rape, steal, etc, but I can have as many sex partners as I want and I don't feel the slightest bit guilty about it. Nor not going to a church on Sundays; it doesn't bother me. I eat meat on "Good Friday" and don't care. I don't feel the white bearded guy in the sky is sending me to eternal damnation for not donating money to his cause. I would also use a Bible/Koran/whatever page to roll a smoke and not care, although that is bordering on hyperbole. Lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin Flames
So these are good reasons to bash and ridicule Christianity? Just because Christians believe something different than athiests?
I don't recall personally bashing Christians in this thread. But I do consider all organized mainstream religions to be the greatest cancer of the human race. While it has some good points, the negatives far outweigh the positives. It is responsible for the vast majority of death, war, hate, fear mongering, bigotry, and oppression in this world today and throughout history. I will not have any part of it.
And I went Catholic School my whole life.
__________________
So far, this is the oldest I've been.
Last edited by Traditional_Ale; 07-09-2010 at 01:49 PM.
I don't recall personally bashing Christians in this thread. But I do consider all organized mainstream religions to be the greatest cancer of the human race. While it has some good points, the negatives far outweigh the positives. It is responsible for the vast majority of death, war, hate, fear mongering, bigotry, and oppression in this world today and throughout history. I will not have any part of it.
And I went Catholic School my whole life.
What is responsible for the vast majority of death, war, hate, fear mongering, bigotry, and oppression in this world today and throughout history is humanity and human nature being violent, warlike, selfish, ignorant, superstitious, etc. It's another evolutionary remnant of barbarous times and short and cruel life for our ancestors. Religion is often used as a justification or rationale for these things but it is not the sole cause of these things. People kill people, religion does not kill people...but it can talk them into it or make them blind to empathy for the beliefs and practices and lifestyles of other people.
I have too many Christian, Morman, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. family members and close friends in whom I see such happiness and joy that they take out of their religion that I cannot catagorically call it a cancer although the way many people live and practice religion and cause harm to others in it's name is deplorable and makes me as angry with it all as it does to you.
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I don't recall personally bashing Christians in this thread. But I do consider all organized mainstream religions to be the greatest cancer of the human race. While it has some good points, the negatives far outweigh the positives. It is responsible for the vast majority of death, war, hate, fear mongering, bigotry, and oppression in this world today and throughout history. I will not have any part of it.
And I went Catholic School my whole life.
Power tools are responsible for a very large portion of accidents in regard to do-it-yourself home projects, it's not the tools fault, its the people who are using them. To me religion is no different, when used properly it is an excellent resource however dangerous in the hands of someone with little knowledge or perception.
So these are good reasons to bash and ridicule Christianity? Just because Christians believe something different than athiests?
I don't fight Christianity as a whole, I fight against the religious thinking pervasive in this world in all religions. Its a outdated idea created by humans and still exists today because of the centuries of church doctrine and in many instances state control by church and state.
My problem always lies in the actions of Christians and any other religious group, when you tell me a gay/lesbian is a sinner and deserves no rights by the state, when you tell me that a soul enters a zygote and therefore stem cell research had to be held back..
Theres countless examples, but if you kept those beliefs out of the voting booth I'd have nothing to bitch about, but you and I both know thats an impossibility, especially in America.
The reason you hear so much more these days from non believers is because finally we have a safe place to talk without fear of all kinds of punishment and social shunning, the internet. Christians play the "why so mean to us" while your religious leaders say atrocious things about us, and politicians in the US proudly say hateful things about non believers because they like to play to your divine place on earth.
So can we seriously end this 'why so mean' to Christians nonsense, if you can't handle the logical debate of how your bronze age beliefs affect our modern day lives then there is always the bliss of being told weekly by some guy that everything is gonna be alright and god loves you unless you're gay, or non Christian, or a cheating spouse, or the 100000's of other things your god likes to punish and kill people for.
__________________ Allskonar fyrir Aumingja!!
Last edited by Thor; 07-09-2010 at 02:34 PM.
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I don't fight Christianity as a whole, I fight against the religious thinking pervasive in this world in all religions. Its a outdated idea created by humans and still exists today because of the centuries of church doctrine and in many instances state control by church and state.
My problem always lies in the actions of Christians and any other religious group, when you tell me a gay/lesbian is a sinner and deserves no rights by the state, when you tell me that a soul enters a zygote and therefore stem cell research had to be held back..
Theres countless examples, but if you kept those beliefs out of the voting booth I'd have nothing to bitch about, but you and I both know thats an impossibility, especially in America.
The reason you hear so much more these days from non believers is because finally we have a safe place to talk without fear of all kinds of punishment and social shunning, the internet. Christians play the "why so mean to us" while your religious leaders say atrocious things about us, and politicians in the US proudly say hateful things about non believers because they like to play to your divine place on earth.
So can we seriously end this 'why so mean' to Christians nonsense, if you can't handle the logical debate of how your bronze age beliefs affect our modern day lives then there is always the bliss of being told weekly by some guy that everything is gonna be alright and god loves you unless you're gay, or non Christian, or a cheating spouse, or the 100000's of other things your god likes to punish and kill people for.
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the sound of pure pwnage!
Great post, Thor. I really wish I had written that.
I don't fight Christianity as a whole, I fight against the religious thinking pervasive in this world in all religions. Its a outdated idea created by humans and still exists today because of the centuries of church doctrine and in many instances state control by church and state.
My problem always lies in the actions of Christians and any other religious group, when you tell me a gay/lesbian is a sinner and deserves no rights by the state, when you tell me that a soul enters a zygote and therefore stem cell research had to be held back..
Theres countless examples, but if you kept those beliefs out of the voting booth I'd have nothing to bitch about, but you and I both know thats an impossibility, especially in America.
The reason you hear so much more these days from non believers is because finally we have a safe place to talk without fear of all kinds of punishment and social shunning, the internet. Christians play the "why so mean to us" while your religious leaders say atrocious things about us, and politicians in the US proudly say hateful things about non believers because they like to play to your divine place on earth.
So can we seriously end this 'why so mean' to Christians nonsense, if you can't handle the logical debate of how your bronze age beliefs affect our modern day lives then there is always the bliss of being told weekly by some guy that everything is gonna be alright and god loves you unless you're gay, or non Christian, or a cheating spouse, or the 100000's of other things your god likes to punish and kill people for.
That is a fantastic post. It really sums up what I think a lot of atheists/agnostics or basically "unbelievers in Christ" feel when it comes to Christianity and religions as a whole.
Frankly, it really is too bad that Christianity in general has such a bad rap like this. It is an example of some ruining it for everyone.
Christ did not intend this for his church. As Christians we are to love the Lord with all our hearts, and to love our neighbour as ourselves. That basically means denying ourselves and wants and acting out in love, in whichever form that may be. It's being selfless.
Where most go wrong is here: We follow Jesus' commands BECAUSE he loved us and saved us, not IN ORDER to earn salvation and "be a Christian."
That's where you hear the abominable preaching of: "Thou shalt not be gay, or thou shalt not do stem cell research, or thou shalt not commit adultery." Unfortunately, the belief here is that as long as you follow everything the Bible says and follow a bunch of rules, you will go to heaven and be saved from hell.
It doesn't work that way. Commands in the Bible are there to help Christians live the life that God intended them to. You follow them because you were saved and your eternity secured, not in order to earn it.
When you become saved, God gives you a brand new heart and attitude, and the Holy Spirit guides you and helps you to make the right decisions as you go through life. It's like a horse that is broken, you WANT to follow Christ's commandments and you desire to do the right thing.
That's where true Christianity differs from other religions in the world, or the "Christianity" that you hear preached especially in America. Other religions are a set of rules that you must follow in order to win favour with the god. Christianity was not meant to be like that, and it is truly unfortunate and disappointing that so many have given the world this negative perception.
Preachers, especially television preachers, should be preaching that unbelievers give their hearts to the Lord first and then follow His commands later as the Spirit convicts us in order to clean up the parts of our lives that God sees as non-beneficial. Instead, they are doing it backwards and telling people that they can earn their salvation by doing good works and "not being gay" and such, and then maybe God won't be so angry with them and make them rot in hell.
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). I saw the mountains as a process of tectonic chaos as well as all of nature and the world around us stemming from life gone wild through mutation and breeding taking over the world in chaotic and random processes. We are only conditioned to see things as beautiful because of evolution. 
