C-Train to airport

[fundmark19]

I no longer want the south line to come in the next 10 years. I would match rather
keep using the brt I am very worried what it will do for crime if a c train comes in to play. Why don't they make the brt more like a ctrain and only have it stop at select locations. I know it is all ready less stops then a regular bus but the c train stops like 10 times from downtown to deep south while brt stops 30. If you take away stops you decrease the ride time down town. I feel the same way with the express bus' from NB and mckenzie towne. What is the point of having an express bus if it follows the exact same route as the 302

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

I am very worried what it will do for crime if a c train comes in to play.

explain.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by ken0042

So much of what you said is the "problem" as I see it with Calgary Transit's philosophy; they will not add any service unless there is a demand for it. However the public doesn't use Calgary Transit outside of the M-F 9-5 commutes because the service isn't offerred.

Look at the merging of the 92 and 416 bus routes. Now if somebody in Elgin wants to take the bus they are looking at a 45 minute ride from Anderson; something that takes 15 minutes in a car.

So I think the city and CT should increase service; and do it long enough to allow people to change their habits. As opposed to waiting for people to start using crappy service; and then look at improving it. I can't think of any other form of "customer service" where this model works; provide crappy service and once enough people want to use the crappy service, improve your infrastructure and staffing to make it decent service.

A lot of this has to do with what they have to work with, namely budgeted annual transit hours. It was planned to have an increase of something like 250 000 over the next 3 years, but during the City budget reductions in 2009, hours were actually cut by 21 500 hours. Operationally, a lot of those cuts took the form of reduced runs on mainline bus routes during midday, some late night feeder route reductions and some reconfiguring/combining of routes. The cuts were supposed to be just temporary and the increases over the long term were still going to happen, but that hasn't materialized yet.

With the limited number of hours it becomes a balancing act between providing runs on currently-high-demand mainline and C-Train routes and also providing service to newer areas. Unfortunately a lot of the newer areas can eat up a lot of service hours since their layouts relegate transit service to taking circuitous routings that can make the service unattractive. Yet, you still have to provide some service to the area.

Altogether though, you're right. I'd like to see more of a "build it and they will come" approach rather than a "come and we will build it" one. Increases to transit service hours are necessary, not cuts as seen last year.

[mykalberta]

The city has no authority to build the C train to the airport and the airport would have no desire for the C train to connect the airport.

There is no plan to take the C Train to the airport. The only "plan" that is even semi concrete is to C train it north to the Alberta Train depot and then the airport tram to the airport where the airport would make money from the tram.

[Ducay]

Exactly, the only c-train YYC will see is a spur line from NE or N lines; if, and when, the airport authority decides that transit is suddenly part of their business plan.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Adding an Airport LRT line would simply add awkward baggage to the equation. Sure you may get 1000 riders a day going to the airport, but at a huge relative cost. Like Frink said, there are about 100 other transit/infrastructure plans that are needed more than this.




And imagine the further outrage from cabbies!

European cities have public transport like trains connected to the airport and it works great.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

European cities have public transport like trains connected to the airport and it works great.

Well clearly they don't have the same setup that the CAA has going on. They're loving their cab consession at the moment. Only once they can generate significantly more income from a pay-per-use tram line, will they make the switch.


And as alluded to, YYC's traffic is mostly business people, or car drivers. The majority of tourists that actually come here, come on big charters.
Europe is a whole different ballgame in terms of transit culture and amount and type of tourists.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

European cities have public transport like trains connected to the airport and it works great.

...European cities that haven't exploded in population from a small prairie city in the span of a generation. European cities that have more or less met all other priority areas in terms of transit service.

Some form of rail transit will eventually serve YYC. Before then there are other priorities to take care of with the finite and precious little funding there is.

[Beerfest]

How much would it cost? The same as other transit?

[Hack&Lube]

Well, Vancouver connected the Skytrain to the airport, are we going to be 10 years later than them on this?

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

How much would it cost? The same as other transit?

To build: $500M according to the article, although that is just an estimate for this particular routing proposal.

To ride: Probably the same as the rest of transit, if it would indeed be operated by Calgary Transit. If the airport builds their own train, who knows?

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Well, Vancouver connected the Skytrain to the airport, are we going to be 10 years later than them on this?

The Sea Island/YVR airport leg of the Canada Line was paid for by the airport authority there. That leg also sees much less ridership than the main leg of the Canada Line, which goes between Richmond and Vancouver.

As for the time it takes for a train to Calgary's airport, it will depend on the airport authority here. Remember, the GVRD has about double the population of Calgary, and YVR airport has 30+% more passenger traffic than YYC airport.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Well clearly they don't have the same setup that the CAA has going on. They're loving their cab consession at the moment. Only once they can generate significantly more income from a pay-per-use tram line, will they make the switch.


And as alluded to, YYC's traffic is mostly business people, or car drivers. The majority of tourists that actually come here, come on big charters.
Europe is a whole different ballgame in terms of transit culture and amount and type of tourists.

There is a bus which goes to the airport once in a blue moon from the end of the NE line but it's so infrequent it's not worth the hassle. But there is already transit out to the airport. I would take the train exclusively for all travel I do and I bet a number of citizens would too. We need to get away from the "that'll only work in Europe" mentality. It would work here, and would get used if it were setup. I'd much rather spend even a $10 premium over top of cabbing it.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

There is a bus which goes to the airport once in a blue moon from the end of the NE line but it's so infrequent it's not worth the hassle. But there is already transit out to the airport.

This routing will be changed once Barlow Trail closes. There will be bus service along Centre Street to and from downtown. Frequency is planned to increase as well.

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

I would take the train exclusively for all travel I do and I bet a number of citizens would too. We need to get away from the "that'll only work in Europe" mentality. It would work here, and would get used if it were setup. I'd much rather spend even a $10 premium over top of cabbing it.

That's all well and good, but how often do you travel? I'd guess the average non-airport-employee Calgarian travels to the airport maybe 5-10 times a year. Most people who would use the southeast and north central lines would be doing so in their regular daily commutes, or in other words, hundreds of times a year.

Not to be forgotten are airport employees. However, the numbers just aren't there, and there are other mitigating factors. Airport employees have free or cheap parking and many work irregular (not 9-5) shifts that are conducive to a strong transit ridership base.

Airport LRT service sounds like a nice thing to have, and it would be. However, when huge swaths of Calgary and hundreds of thousands of Calgarians are unserved by LRT for the trips they make daily, airport LRT has to wait. It's a numbers game, and the numbers just aren't there relative to other options.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

I'd much rather spend even a $10 premium over top of cabbing it.

So I'll have to take a feeder bus to the WLRT, take that to downtown. Walk, wait, and change lines. Take the N/NELRT towards airport. Get off, change lines to whatever spur line/tram line goes to airport. All while lugging a suitcase around. Sounds like a peachy time on a feeder bus and a busy c-train.

And all that for $10 MORE than a direct cab ride? You'd have to be nuts.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Well, Vancouver connected the Skytrain to the airport, are we going to be 10 years later than them on this?

They also recently hosted the Olympics, which gave them the impetus to get theirs done. Without the Olympics would it have been built?

At this point, Vancouver is the only major airport in Canada with a passenger rail link. Toronto and Montreal are both still in the planning/financing/debating phase of getting rail links to Pearson and Trudeau, and they are both much larger cities with much more mature transit systems.



The thing is, what will the ridership of an Airport C-Train link be?

Calgary isn't a city you can really get around without a car, so unlike someone visiting a city like London, Paris, or New York, which you can realistically navigate using public transit, a tourist visiting Calgary is pretty much required to rent a car or take a tour of some type. As a result, visitors to Calgary are unlikely to use the train to any large degree.

That leaves locals. Anyone traveling on business will get reimbursed for their taxi trips to and from the airport or their parking costs at the airport, so most aren't going to take the extra time to take the train.

That leaves people traveling for pleasure. If I was traveling with limited baggage, I might consider taking the train, but if I had a large suitcase and was taking a long vacation, I would just consider the cost of a taxi part of the cost of my trip or I'd get someone to give me a ride.

As has been said, the people who would get the most use out of a train link would be airport employees, and there aren't enough of them to really justify the construction costs when there are more high-demand routes needed.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

To ride: Probably the same as the rest of transit, if it would indeed be operated by Calgary Transit. If the airport builds their own train, who knows?

Maybe, maybe not. If you take the Skytrain to YVR it's the normal fare, but leaving from the airport they charge an extra $5 (unless that was just for the Olympics).

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Ducay

And all that for $10 MORE than a direct cab ride? You'd have to be nuts.

I think he meant $10 over the $2.75 transit fare; not $10 more than a cab.

That's the thing for me; when I have to fly to Winnipeg for a long weekend I either have to factor in $120 round trip for cabs right now, or arrange for a ride both ways from a friend. The reason is my fiancee and I share the family car, so leaving it at the airport isn't as much of an option any more.

Also keep in mind for you in the SW, the West LRT will be part of the NE line, so no transfer downtown for you.

[Table 5]

I'd rather spend the money on creating some street-car routes in the inner city, and up Centre Street....not unlike what Toronto (or basically any European city) does. The one problem with the LRT is that it takes a lot of infrastructure and effort to build a line. I'm not sure these systems have to be so massive.

[SebC]

What advantage does a street-car route have over a bus route?