G20: Toronto in Flames

[icecube]

Thanks for the provocateur videos Mikey. Blatant evidence right there in front of your eyes that there are cops dressed as protesters causing some of the violence.

How can anyone seriously turn a blind eye to these videos for christ's sake?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

That's what I was thinking. Host it in the middle of the woods someplace in the Yukon.

Please...anywhere but the Yukon. That place is gorgeous and having 20,000 people descend on it and burn it would be a travesty.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

The G20 has to be held in a major resort area (think Cancun) or in the middle of a big city because the press/personal security/political delegations number upward of 20,000; you need a lot of hotel rooms for that many people. That's why the G20 was moved from Muskoka to Toronto and why it can't be held most army bases.

If it was moved to the UN Headquarters in New York the US would bear all the costs for security every year, which isn't fair either.

Rest assured that part of the projected 1 Billion dollar cost is earmarked to reimburse property damage (despite officials claiming otherwise). The government would not admit to such a fund because it would encourage property destruction.

Nobody asks Sweden's opinion on a bank tax or asks New Zealand what developed nations should be doing to help the third world, much less leading such a discussion, as Canada is doing now. Hosting this kind of event periodically is the cost of being a world player and one good thing about this is that we won't be due to host one of these for a good while.

This is a problem 20,000 people never have any reason to get together for a meeting. That is 1000 people per country. Low key meetings of a few hundred people could be held continuously until agreements are reached then fly everyone to the UN for the photo Ops and signings.

The original G5's, 6's and 7's weren't massive policy debates. They were discussions with relatively like minded finance ministers who held similar views on the economic future of the world (NO COMMUNISM) Now that interests are so divergent both politically and economically they have just created a slightly smaller dysfunctional body as the UN. We don't need a mini UN roving from country to country enabling protesters.

These meetings could be done silently without the heads of state present for far less and be far more effective. There is a reason why the UN headquarters is in one city and doesn't rove around from country to country like the olympics.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by icecube

Thanks for the provocateur videos Mikey. Blatant evidence right there in front of your eyes that there are cops dressed as protesters causing some of the violence.

How can anyone seriously turn a blind eye to these videos for christ's sake?

....becasue it's a "conspiracy theory".........lol.

Most people don't understand their motivation to do stuff like this.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

Really? I don't think I know anyone who would get behind this moronic display. If anything, your lame post is the cliche.

Relax... it was just a joke. I guess things like babies strapped into child seats and getting mauled by dogs is fair game around here, but don't dare make fun of Starbuck's getting a window smashed out!

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Relax... it was just a joke. I guess things like babies strapped into child seats and getting mauled by dogs is fair game around here, but don't dare make fun for Starbuck's getting a window smashed out!

No worries. I knew it was a joke. I was just calling it lame. Hey, you make a joke on this forum and you'll get comments from the peanut gallery. Besides, that picture is disturbing, especially the mob cheering on senseless property distruction.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

No worries. I knew it was a joke. I was just calling it lame. Hey, you make a joke on this forum and you'll get comments from the peanut gallery. Besides, that picture is disturbing, especially the mob cheering on senseless property distruction.

Alright, I see your point. I don't really think damaging property is a good thing. I think it is extremely wasteful and while these people think they are hurting a souless corporation, it will probably be some average working class guy that is going to end up losing from it.

I really don't like Starbuck's though, but not based on anything except their products. I don't have a clue about their business practices.

[Bownesian]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is a problem 20,000 people never have any reason to get together for a meeting. That is 1000 people per country. Low key meetings of a few hundred people could be held continuously until agreements are reached then fly everyone to the UN for the photo Ops and signings.

I heard that Obama's security detail is 1000 people in itself.

The 1000 ppl/country math doesn't quite work because there are other countries invited as guest delegates (Ethiopia, Malawi, the Netherlands, Spain and Vietnam) and there are other groups there as well (the Managing Director and Chairman of the IMF, the President of the World Bank, The International Monetary and Financial Committee and the Chairman of the Development Committee, all with their respective entourages.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

I heard that Obama's security detail is 1000 people in itself.

The 1000 ppl/country math doesn't quite work because there are other countries invited as guest delegates (Ethiopia, Malawi, the Netherlands, Spain and Vietnam) and there are other groups there as well (the Managing Director and Chairman of the IMF, the President of the World Bank, The International Monetary and Financial Committee and the Chairman of the Development Committee, all with their respective entourages.

IIRC, Greenpeace has observer status at the summit too.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by GGG

That is 1000 people per country.

Ha. Good point.

They held one of these stupid events in Calgary in 2002. I saw a "motorcade" with about 10 cop cars and motorbikes (lights flashing) "protecting" four or five big black SUV's roaring down Blackfoot.

You'd think Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill were going by, it was such a display.

Turned out it was a few low-level functionaries from (IIRC) Italy who had been having dinner at that restaurant in Fish Creek, and they were going back to their hotel. It was absurd. The Big Shots weren't even in the city.

[Bownesian]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

IIRC, Greenpeace has observer status at the summit too.

I found the complete list of "Invited Participants" on the Canadian government's G20 site:

Ethiopia
Malawi
Netherlands
Spain
Vietnam
African Union
Association of Southeast Asian Nations
Financial Stability Board
International Labour Organization
International Monetary Fund
Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development
United Nations
World Bank
World Trade Organization

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

No worries. I knew it was a joke. I was just calling it lame. Hey, you make a joke on this forum and you'll get comments from the peanut gallery. Besides, that picture is disturbing, especially the mob cheering on senseless property distruction.

Are you looking at a different picture than the rest of us? What you call a "mob cheering on senseless property destruction" looks more like "some bystanders taking pictures of a guy breaking a window" to me.

And really, you are "disturbed" by that photo? Disturbed how?

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

And really, you are "disturbed" by that photo? Disturbed how?

The stupidity and violence of the action. The inaction and approval of the crowd. It pisses me off because I wouldn't do it and I've been a victim of vandalism in the past. What if someone was sitting down having a coffee behind that window? Good enough?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

I found the complete list of "Invited Participants" on the Canadian government's G20 site:

Ethiopia
Malawi
Netherlands
Spain
Vietnam
African Union
Association of Southeast Asian Nations
Financial Stability Board
International Labour Organization
International Monetary Fund
Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development
United Nations
World Bank
World Trade Organization

Weird. They had a guy on the news from Greenpeace yesterday and they said that they had observer status.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

The stupidity and violence of the action. The inaction and approval of the crowd. It pisses me off because I wouldn't do it and I've been a victim of vandalism in the past. What if someone was sitting down having a coffee behind that window? Good enough?

Good enough indeed. You are very sensitive, I see that now.

If someone was sitting down having a coffee behind that window, it would be a completely different story, because there'd be a real person getting hurt. But since there wasn't someone sitting down having a coffee behind that window, it's a picture of some moron breaking a window.

Dressing it up with "cheering mobs" and "that's disturbing" is just that -- dressing it up. It's sort of a microcosm of this whole thing. One fool among thousands of people does something stupid and we start foaming at the mouth.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

I found the complete list of "Invited Participants" on the Canadian government's G20 site:

Ethiopia
Malawi
Netherlands
Spain
Vietnam
African Union
Association of Southeast Asian Nations
Financial Stability Board
International Labour Organization
International Monetary Fund
Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development
United Nations
World Bank
World Trade Organization

Wow ....with that "invited participant" list, I think they should change the name of this conference from G20 to ...."How to put all nations in insurmountable debt to cause a crisis and push for world government."

[Bownesian]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Weird. They had a guy on the news from Greenpeace yesterday and they said that they had observer status.

It was a list of official guest participants. They may well have also invited a number of observers who would probably be given similar access as the Press.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Good enough indeed. You are very sensitive, I see that now.

If someone was sitting down having a coffee behind that window, it would be a completely different story, because there'd be a real person getting hurt. But since there wasn't someone sitting down having a coffee behind that window, it's a picture of some moron breaking a window.

Dressing it up with "cheering mobs" and "that's disturbing" is just that -- dressing it up. It's sort of a microcosm of this whole thing. One fool among thousands of people does something stupid and we start foaming at the mouth.

Well I've been called worse things than being sensitive...
I don't post much in CP but I'm a shut in this weekend and watched the whole shltestorm unfold yesterday. So I made a lot of posts. There was way more than one fool at work Saturday and the mob mentality was definitely present. (I could see it and I sure as hell could hear it) Maybe disturbing wasn't the best choice of words although it applies for sure. I don't like crap like this happening in my country. It got me angry. If thats being too sensitive then so be it....

[Bownesian]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Wow ....with that "invited participant" list, I think they should change the name of this conference from G20 to ...."How to put all nations in insurmountable debt to cause a crisis and push for world government."

I'd rather this group than yet another anti-Israel resolution out of the broken, corrupt and useless United Nations General Assembly.

The member states (and meta-states, in the case of the EU), represent the most powerful world economies. In a world where I have no choice but to buy stuff that is made half a world away in China and where bad mortgage regulation in the United States can lead to state bankruptcies in Europe, it is the height of foolishness to think that the leaders of these economies shouldn't get together from time to time to talk about what works, what doesn't and make macro-economic decisions to help everyone.

New World Order theories aside, Canada has a choice -
1) Participate in international trade discussions (including having a voice on social justice and environmental issues, if that's your thing) and participate in international trade.
2) Don't participate in those discussions but participate in international trade and hope that the decisions made by others aren't too damaging to our economy.
3) Don't participate in international trade and get used to being poor like all the other non-trading nations.

I am in favour of our government having a voice in international trade issues but I understand the point of view that says we should keep our money to ourselves. I have no time for anti-scientific, anti-trade groups who would have us stop using oil, stop trading and return to the 19th century.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

The member states (and meta-states, in the case of the EU), represent the most powerful world economies. In a world where I have no choice but to buy stuff that is made half a world away in China and where bad mortgage regulation in the United States can lead to state bankruptcies in Europe, it is the height of foolishness to think that the leaders of these economies shouldn't get together from time to time to talk about what works, what doesn't and make macro-economic decisions to help everyone.

It has very little to do with the political leaders and alot more to do with international central banking practices of these nations. The bankers flat out own most if not all of the G20 nations.

If the "leaders" want to make a real difference they should stay home and change their domestic banking laws to make it so we don't have to create money through private banking cartels, putting us in debt with compound interest.

Institutions like the IMF/World Bank, and WTO should be disbanded forever. They favor nothing but banks and corporations.

The planet as a whole is about 52 trillion dollars in debt to the banks of this world.......and it doesnt have to be this way.