Report: Israel storms Gaza-bound aid ships

[CaptainCrunch]

^ this

There's an old saying that any law should not be a suicide pack.

I have serious concerns about the concept of international law.

I have serious concerns with the validity of the UN who stumbles all over themselves to condemn Israel at every turn, fails to condemned a democratically elected government that acts in terror against Israel and its own Citizens while being supported by another UN member (Iran) that openly supports two of the largest terror groups in the Middle East who surprise suprise have it in their mandate to destroy Israel.

There is a lack of inherant fairness in the UN. Until they look at finding a way to force an end to Hamas by making them recognize Israel's right to exist. Until they do something more effective then placing observers to monitor Hezbollah, then the UN can bitch all they want, but a great deal of this is their fault, the UN has had a big role in the reason why Israel has such a bunker mentallity combined with a us against them and we're on our own out here complex.

[peter12]

I find the response of the protesters/provocateurs on the first ship an absolute mystery. I have no idea why they attacked the Israeli boarders, probably some idiotic radical endeavour to fight the power or something. Once the situation escalated to the point where Israeli soldiers' weapons were being stolen and used against them, I feel, based on the reports, that the Israeli response was justified.

This is not where the operation went wrong, however.

It went wrong when the Israelis, once again, blundered into an obvious public relations trap. The convoy was nothing but a political stunt meant to test the resolve of the Israelis and unfortunately, Israel took the bait once again.

It's pretty apparent now that the ships didn't have sophisticated weaponry on board intended for the military aid of Hamas. There was no reason to risk the lives of their soldiers and those on board on a gung-ho operation that could only go wrong for Israel and benefit Hamas.

Israel has always perceived an existential threat when forming it's defense policy. In the past, this was only truly realized when Israel was at war with either insurgents or enemy states. However, since the Second Intifada, Israel has seemingly become unable to see it's true enemy. There is no doubt that ham-handed operations, like this one, put their citizens more at risk.

Look at what is going to happen now. Turkey and the EU, two key trade allies to Israel, are backing off BIG TIME. The USA's relationship has become so soured that Netanyahu cancelled his meeting with Obama in the wake of this tragedy.

As a supporter of Israel, I have to call them to a higher standard. They are putting their own existence at risk while the real enemies here, Islamic radicals and their Western relativist allies, gain victories by barely raising a finger.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

^ this

There's an old saying that any law should not be a suicide pack.

I have serious concerns about the concept of international law.

I have serious concerns with the validity of the UN who stumbles all over themselves to condemn Israel at every turn, fails to condemned a democratically elected government that acts in terror against Israel and its own Citizens while being supported by another UN member (Iran) that openly supports two of the largest terror groups in the Middle East who surprise suprise have it in their mandate to destroy Israel.

There is a lack of inherant fairness in the UN. Until they look at finding a way to force an end to Hamas by making them recognize Israel's right to exist. Until they do something more effective then placing observers to monitor Hezbollah, then the UN can bitch all they want, but a great deal of this is their fault, the UN has had a big role in the reason why Israel has such a bunker mentallity combined with a us against them and we're on our own out here complex.

Which is exactly why Israel doesn't give a crap what the international community thinks.

Hell, they even spit the US in the face at times.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Storming the ship and killing 9 Turks certainly isnt an act of friendship either. You can't storm a ship in international waters and shoot the crew when they try to repel the attack. They've shown more than once in the last year that they'll disregard the interests of their allies to achieve their objectives.

Life doesn't work like that - you don't get to poke a bull with a stick and then cry foul when it sticks its horn in your mouth.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Storming the ship and killing 9 Turks certainly isnt an act of friendship either. You can't storm a ship in international waters and shoot the crew when they try to repel the attack. They've shown more than once in the last year that they'll disregard the interests of their allies to achieve their objectives.

Sorry I'm not buying this at all.

Its well known that Israel has a blockade in conjunction with Egypt. They warned that they would board and inspect those ships. 5 out of 6 were boarded peacefully.

To me Turkish flagged boats with Turkish crew members trying to break an established blockade is an act with the most serious national consequences, and could be viewed as a serious provacation by one nation state against another. It would be equivalent to American's smuggling Aid to the FLQ during the Quebec Crisis.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Azure

What exactly is Turkey or NATO going to do? There is only one country in that region with nuclear weapons. And just one country with a policy in place saying if their survival is threatened, they will use nuclear weapons.

If the international community has any balls, they will condemn the ships for their acts of stupidity that resulted in a bunch of people being killed, tell the protesters they should have listened to the peaceful resolution they were offered, and work with Israel to fix the reasons the blockade is in place.

NATO countries will certainly pile up the pressure on the Israelis. Why would the international community do anything but condemn the raid and the illegal blockade of Gaza? Israel has absolutely no UN backing on any of these policies. Its a joke that countries like the US and Israel think they're above the UN.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sorry I'm not buying this at all.

Its well known that Israel has a blockade in conjunction with Egypt. They warned that they would board and inspect those ships. 5 out of 6 were boarded peacefully.

To me Turkish flagged boats with Turkish crew members trying to break an established blockade is an act with the most serious national consequences, and could be viewed as a serious provacation by one nation state against another. It would be equivalent to American's smuggling Aid to the FLQ during the Quebec Crisis.

NGOs aren't part of the government so I fail to see how this could be nation on nation.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Azure

Which is exactly why Israel doesn't give a crap what the international community thinks.

Hell, they even spit the US in the face at times.

In regards to the international community, everyone should remember what Thucydides said:

"Melians. Well then, if you risk so much to retain your empire, and your subjects to get rid of it, it were surely great baseness and cowardice in us who are still free not to try everything that can be tried, before submitting to your yoke.

Athenians. Not if you are well advised, the contest not being an equal one, with honour as the prize and shame as the penalty, but a question of self-preservation and of not resisting those who are far stronger than you are."

It goes both ways. Israel is completely alienating itself from regional and global allies. They cannot play this game of "last man standing in the Middle East" for much longer without losing a lot more than they stand to gain.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

Look at what is going to happen now. Turkey and the EU, two key trade allies to Israel, are backing off BIG TIME. The USA's relationship has become so soured that Netanyahu cancelled his meeting with Obama in the wake of this tragedy.

While true, I doubt it will last long. Turkey benefits way too much from a stable relationship with Israel.

Right now they have no choice but to back off. Even Canada would distance themselves from the US if something like this happened between us.

But with time, when the investigation is complete, I have no doubt Turkey will once again rectify their relationship with Israel.

If a ship flying a Canadian flag were blow apart by the Brits, our government would have to publicly distance ourselves from the Brits. But that doesn't mean our relationship is ruined forever.

As a supporter of Israel, I have to call them to a higher standard. They are putting their own existence at risk while the real enemies here, Islamic radicals and their Western relativist allies, gain victories by barely raising a finger.

Pretty much.

For the record I agreed with your earlier points about being suckered into what was basically a publicity stunt to turn the world against Israel.

Truth is Israel could have made a fool of those ships. Just block them. You got bigger boats, so just block them out. The whole world will see exactly what is going on when the ships try ramming into those blocking them to get around the blockade.

While the boarding was routine, Israel could have used other methods to fix this.

The sad part is that ships get boarded all the time. Every single country in the world protects their boundaries by boarding ships they deem to be there unlawfully. The US Coast Guard does this numerous times each day.

And this single incident came to this conclusion. And there were 5 other ships boarded the same way yesterday. None of them turned out violent.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

NATO countries will certainly pile up the pressure on the Israelis. Why would the international community do anything but condemn the raid and the illegal blockade of Gaza? Israel has absolutely no UN backing on any of these policies. Its a joke that countries like the US and Israel think they're above the UN.

The UN is a worthless organization because almost all of the members of the Security Council are in reality 'above it.' Russia doesn't give a crap what the UN does either.

The international community condemned the bombing of Lebanon too. In fact it seems like the international community has a routine of making a big scene about stuff like this, but in the end they won't act anyways.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Azure

While true, I doubt it will last long. Turkey benefits way too much from a stable relationship with Israel.

Right now they have no choice but to back off. Even Canada would distance themselves from the US if something like this happened between us.

But with time, when the investigation is complete, I have no doubt Turkey will once again rectify their relationship with Israel.

They may still have some sort of cordial contact with each other, but Turkey will be much less likely to work closely with Israel on say, custom issues, which, in this case, could have helped Israel avoid this issue entirely.

What if Israeli inspectors were allowed onto the ships before they even left port? What if Israeli ships were allowed to escort them into the Gaza?

[LChoy]

My random thoughts
- I can't believe that the Israeli's didn't expect violence. The people on board have that protester mentality and the belief that they are fighting the good fight. I'm thinking similar make up to those that riot whenever the G8 or something happens. With all these people worked up, having soldiers fast roping in during the middle of the night provided the spark. I do believe at that point, the soldiers had the right to defend themselves otherwise they would be completely overpowered by the mob of people
- Although I haven't seen it here in Canada, modern SWAT teams use a paintball gun as a less than lethal tool. Usually, the balls contains pepper agent and meant to be used in crowd control and submission control. Crunch probably more qualified to speak on this though
- It appears that the soldiers definitely had the element of surprise as reports say the protesters never expected their ship to be stormed while they were still a distance away from Israeli territorial waters. I theorize that they intended to be stopped/challenged in Israeli waters rather than international. Surprise leads to panic leads to violence?
- I agree with many people on this board. Israel can't win no matter what they do
- While people are slamming this action, at least they didn't do what the French did with the Rainbow warrior...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

They may still have some sort of cordial contact with each other, but Turkey will be much less likely to work closely with Israel on say, custom issues, which, in this case, could have helped Israel avoid this issue entirely.

What if Israeli inspectors were allowed onto the ships before they even left port? What if Israeli ships were allowed to escort them into the Gaza?

Why didn't all that happen prior to this incident?

Turkey has what is basically an amazing relationship with Israel. Its been like that for a long time.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Azure

Why didn't all that happen prior to this incident?

Turkey has what is basically an amazing relationship with Israel. Its been like that for a long time.

Prior to Gaza 2009... which I still tentatively support, by the way.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

NATO countries will certainly pile up the pressure on the Israelis. Why would the international community do anything but condemn the raid and the illegal blockade of Gaza? Israel has absolutely no UN backing on any of these policies. Its a joke that countries like the US and Israel think they're above the UN.

I think Israel and the US gave up on the UN a long time ago. Like previous posters have said, if the UN wants legitimacy they have to apply law equally. This means taking stands against both sides... IE they have to start pushing the Palestinians as well as the Israelis.

I think if the Israelis felt secure in that they actually knew someone would enforce laws violated against them they would not feel the need to take the law into their own hands.

The UN has been way too biased to ever get the Israelis to cooperate. When Israel is getting dozens more motions tabled against it than places like Sudan, North Korea, Iran, etc... how do you expect them to react?

If the UN refuses to disarm Hezbollah despite a mandate which says they have to or react in anyway to other terrorist groups, how does Israel react? Should they just invest in bleach to clean the blood off their cafes from all the suicide bombings?

[Azure]

The Turkish organizers of the Gaza Strip-bound flotilla that was boarded this morning by Israeli commandos knew well in advance that their vessels would never reach Israeli waters. That's because the organizers belong to a nonprofit that was banned by the Israeli government in July 2008 for its ties to terrorism finance.

The Turkish IHH (Islan Haklary Ve Hurriyetleri Vakfi in Turkish) was founded in 1992, and reportedly popped up on the CIA's radar in 1996 for its radical Islamist leanings. Like many other Islamist charities, the IHH has a record of providing relief to areas where disaster has struck in the Muslim world.

However, the organization is not a force for good. The Turkish nonprofit belongs to a Saudi-based umbrella organization known to finance terrorism called the Union of Good (Ittilaf al-Kheir in Arabic). Notably, the Union is chaired by Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, who is known best for his religious ruling that encourages suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. According to one report, Qardawi personally transferred millions of dollars to the Union in an effort to provide financial support to Hamas.

In 2008, the Israelis banned IHH, along with 35 other Islamist charities worldwide, for its ties to the Union of Good. This was a follow-on designation; Israelis first blocked the Union of Good from operating in the West Bank and Gaza in 2002.

Interestingly, the Union of Good may not only be tied to Hamas. Included in the Israeli list of 36 designees was the International Islamic Relief Organization (IIRO). In 2006, both the U.S. government and the United Nations designated the IIRO branch offices in Indonesia and the Philippines for financing al Qaeda. French magistrate Jean-Louis Brougiere also testified that IHH had an "important role" in Ahmed Ressam's failed "millennium plot" to bomb the Los Angeles airport in late 1999.

......

Thus, the convoy of ships allegedly trying to bring aid to the Gaza Strip could never be characterized as a "peace flotilla." With ties to Hamas and other dangerous groups, the IHH can only be described as a dangerous organization. Its members only underscored this fact when they attacked Israeli naval personnel with iron bars and knives, ultimately leading to the regrettable deaths this morning on the Mediterranean Sea.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...nance-flotilla

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

NATO countries will certainly pile up the pressure on the Israelis. Why would the international community do anything but condemn the raid and the illegal blockade of Gaza? Israel has absolutely no UN backing on any of these policies. Its a joke that countries like the US and Israel think they're above the UN.

Of course the U.S. and Israel think they're about the UN, its pretty rare that the UN has applied the same standards to those nations that they apply to the other nations. Combine that with the fact that Israel is surrounded on all sides by hostile nations or entities, and they have been pretty much constantly under attack by one side or the other since their founding and the UN has been an ineffectual organization in this region.


I go back to the hypocrisy of the UN in 2007 where they were so busy tripping over themselves to put forth 22 resolutions against Israel that they failed to put forth any resolutions condemning Sudan for the genocides and other attrocities happening there.

Call me when the UN is reformed so that it deals with every member state on equitable terms.

[Flashpoint]

I think Israel should start issuing tazers to its commandos. That way incidents like this would be funny instead of controversial.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

I think Israel should start issuing tazers to its commandos. That way incidents like this would be funny instead of controversial.

Ever been shot by a pepper ball. Its a lot less pleasant.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

I find the response of the protesters/provocateurs on the first ship an absolute mystery. I have no idea why they attacked the Israeli boarders, probably some idiotic radical endeavour to fight the power or something. Once the situation escalated to the point where Israeli soldiers' weapons were being stolen and used against them, I feel, based on the reports, that the Israeli response was justified.

This is not where the operation went wrong, however.

It went wrong when the Israelis, once again, blundered into an obvious public relations trap. The convoy was nothing but a political stunt meant to test the resolve of the Israelis and unfortunately, Israel took the bait once again.

It's pretty apparent now that the ships didn't have sophisticated weaponry on board intended for the military aid of Hamas. There was no reason to risk the lives of their soldiers and those on board on a gung-ho operation that could only go wrong for Israel and benefit Hamas.

Look at what is going to happen now. Turkey and the EU, two key trade allies to Israel, are backing off BIG TIME. The USA's relationship has become so soured that Netanyahu cancelled his meeting with Obama in the wake of this tragedy.

As a supporter of Israel, I have to call them to a higher standard. They are putting their own existence at risk while the real enemies here, Islamic radicals and their Western relativist allies, gain victories by barely raising a finger.

The news coming out now is that the Israeli troops started firing into the boats before they got onto the decks, from the helicoptors, while the troops were coming down the ropes, it would appear the protestors thought they were about to be executed hence their reaction, as they knew they were always going to be stopped and expected to be arrested the story makes sense.

However it shakes out a complete fubar by Israel, stopped a few tons of food getting into Gaza at the cost of virtually all world sympathy.