Report: Israel storms Gaza-bound aid ships - Page 9 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Flames Fan, Ph.D. · 05-31-2010, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I am rather curious to know if you would/have criticized Canadian and American soldiers for essentially doing the same thing the Israelis did?

As someone who closely follows the propaganda from the US government / military, I know for a fact that my sadness in response to human life is quite uniform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And it is a debate that will be utterly dominated by propaganda on both sides. Only a hypocrite would dismiss one side's arguments a mere propaganda because their own side is equally affected.

I agree.

I would only add that it is not a debate, which is why it will not be solved. It's simply a process by two sides to appeal to nativist / religious feelings.

Flames Fan, Ph.D. · 05-31-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calculoso

Are these the only 6 ships that have been stopped since January or is this the only ship since then which has put up a fight?

After all... the Trojan Horse was only one present... can you imagine if there were 6 of them??

Difficult to say. This flotilla was pre-announced, heightening awareness.

The details and coverage of events in those waters have been softened in much of the US press, particularly because the blockade puts two prominent US allies in violation of Geneva Convention rules regarding collective punishment.

I read passing mention of events in French, Turkish and Israeli sources (translated by a post-doc in the lab), but they're often related to hyperbolic responses to Israeli defense exercises. I think it's pretty well recognized by the crazies on the Palestinian side that tunnels through Egypt is the effective way to bring peaceful and non-peaceful cargo into Palestine.

Azure · 05-31-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Because you're boarding a ship from a helicopter one at a time in fairly close quarters, that has already refused to obey your demands, and who you suspect of aiding the country you're at war with? This wasn't a riot where you can unload high-powered paintballs down upon the protesters from a distance.

I don't see why you have such an issue with this, anyway. When the military does an action like this, I believe THEY should be as well armed as they possibly can be, I don't care what military it is. It has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion on the matter of this boarding besides the fact that the Israelis are notorious for releasing cloudy military reports to the public.

You're just so eager to jump on anything said about Israel that you try and construe it as negatively as possible to fit your own over-reactive manner on the topic.

Except that the military should take measures to prevent the violence from escalating into people being killed. Which is what the paintball guns would be for.

GGG · 05-31-2010, 08:18 PM

My theory is that before boarding the boat the IDF fired the paintball guns on the people on the boat to show that they were serious that they were going to board.

This riled up the protesters / aid workers / lefty wing nuts on the boat as well as make them believe the IDF wasn't going to use lethal force. So when the soliders board they attack believing the soliders don't have real guns. Once attacked the Soliders fight back using lethal force.

To me that scenario is the only way to explain why the people on the boat were rioting before being boarded.

blankall · 05-31-2010, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGG

My theory is that before boarding the boat the IDF fired the paintball guns on the people on the boat to show that they were serious that they were going to board.

This riled up the protesters / aid workers / lefty wing nuts on the boat as well as make them believe the IDF wasn't going to use lethal force. So when the soliders board they attack believing the soliders don't have real guns. Once attacked the Soliders fight back using lethal force.

To me that scenario is the only way to explain why the people on the boat were rioting before being boarded.

The helicopters were overhead. The people also had an entire boat trip to sit around and discuss their defiance, which spilled over into violence the moment the IDF came. The video we have is also not in sequence. There may have already been soldiers on the boat at the point we see the people rapelling down from the copters.

Nage Waza · 05-31-2010, 08:22 PM

While the flotilla floated towards Israel, Mosques around the world have been blowing up from suicide attackers. Hundreds dead in assorted countries in assorted attacks.

Did any ambassador get booted from a country as a response? Did anyone post in Calgary puck as a response? Were there riots at Israeli embassies as a response? Probably none of the above. No one seems to care, unless of course Israelis are involved.

RougeUnderoos · 05-31-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

While the flotilla floated towards Israel, Mosques around the world have been blowing up from suicide attackers. Hundreds dead in assorted countries in assorted attacks.

Did any ambassador get booted from a country as a response? Did anyone post in Calgary puck as a response? Were there riots at Israeli embassies as a response? Probably none of the above. No one seems to care, unless of course Israelis are involved.

What are you talking about? There was a hospital somehow "attacked" today in Pakistan and there are eight dead. I don't know where blowing up mosques and hundreds dead is coming from.

The suggestion that everyone ignores crimes committed by non-Israelis is ludicrous.

HOZ · 05-31-2010, 08:38 PM

The "free Gaza" flotilla has nothing to do with human rights.
Why? The answer is so simple a 5-year-old can understand it.

There is no problem to transfer humanitarian aid into Gaza. Hundred of trucks enter the strip daily. Last week UNRWA set up an entire summer camp facility for the children of Gaza. It was transported with the aid of Israel. The camp was then burned down by Hamas. (Hamas also burned restaurants in Gaza. Restaurants? In starving Gaza? Yes, indeed.)

If "Human Rights" were the real agenda of the boat people they could have easily transported all the goods through the Israeli border crossings.
If "Human Rights" were the real agenda, the leaders of the boat people would have agreed to transfer a message and a package to Gilad Shalit – An Israeli soldier who is being held illegally by Hamas without the basic human right to see a doctor or a representative of the Red Cross or a representative of his family.
If "Human Rights" were the real agenda the boat people would have made it to Gaza already and not have waited and postponed their sailing until favorable media conditions occur.

This was no upset activists getting out of hand. They were well prepared for a conflict and came ready for a fight. Because as everyone knows, bats, clubs, iron bars are so readily at hand on passenger ships when assault troops propel down from helicopters onto the top deck.

That said the IDF did make a mistake. The underestimated the deviousness of the pro-Hamas people. I would also like to say that Israel stepped into a well laid trap which will only ratchet up the hateful sloganneering against it.

Turkey sure didn't waste any time. You'd think they were in on the trap.

VladtheImpaler · 05-31-2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Out of curiosity, how long are the Palestinian's supposed to whine for simple necessities?

6 months? 1 year? Should they whine in the New York Times or the Guardian?

I really don't care. Until Palestinians/Hamas (1) recognize Israel, (2) institute democracy & rule of law, (3) tolerate other religions, and (4) stop suicide bombing civilians, it's "Israel, right or wrong" in my book.

Nage Waza · 05-31-2010, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What are you talking about? There was a hospital somehow "attacked" today in Pakistan and there are eight dead. I don't know where blowing up mosques and hundreds dead is coming from.

The suggestion that everyone ignores atrocities committed by non-Israelis is ludicrous.

Are you being serious? The hospital attack was an attempt to free one of the fools that bombed the mosque.
I just did a quick google search and found a bunch, I did not check into the websites in any way shape or form, so use caution:

http://en.trend.az/regions/world/oco...s/1680043.html
http://english.cri.cn/6966/2010/05/10/167s568585.htm
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-5-2010_pg7_30
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/bomb-...-khyber-agency
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_208710.html

I could be posting all day. I don't think I saw a single thread on any of these and I am not sure why.

Did I say anything was ignored? Or did I just point something out that was 'true'?

Coys1882 · 05-31-2010, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I really don't care. Until Palestinians/Hamas (1) recognize Israel, (2) institute democracy & rule of law, (3) tolerate other religions, and (4) stop suicide bombing civilians, it's "Israel, right or wrong" in my book.

Well put Vlad - I'm not sure how you can argue against this.

flylock shox · 05-31-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Well put Vlad - I'm not sure how you can argue against this.

Pretty easily: you just bold the words "or wrong."

But I doubt Vlad really means to say he'd support Israel "no matter what."

Coys1882 · 05-31-2010, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Pretty easily: you just bold the words "or wrong."

But I doubt Vlad really means to say he'd support Israel "no matter what."

thanks Tips - quality post.

FunkMasterFlame · 05-31-2010, 09:00 PM

What the hell are you talking about Nage? None of those examples have anything to do with the situation at hand. What happened here was that a sovereign nation (Israel) attacked a humanitarian vessel flying the flag of another sovereign nation (Turkey), in international waters, killing up to 19 people in the process. In not a single one of your links was the terrorist act perpetrated by agents acting on behalf of a nation state.

Please try to stay on topic here.

Coys1882 · 05-31-2010, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

What the hell are you talking about Nage? None of those examples have anything to do with the situation at hand. What happened here was that a sovereign nation (Israel) attacked a humanitarian vessel flying the flag of another sovereign nation (Turkey), in international waters, killing up to 19 people in the process. In not a single one of your links was the terrorist act perpetrated by agents acting on behalf of a nation state.

Please try to stay on topic here.

Why do people keep saying they 'attacked' this boat? Do you really think lowering guys down on zip lines one by one was the best effort they could put forward? HAHA.

flylock shox · 05-31-2010, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coys1882

thanks Tips - quality post.

No probs. It's what I'm here for

FunkMasterFlame · 05-31-2010, 09:16 PM

I would call a nighttime military raid by commandos in which 19 people were killed an "attack" wouldn't you? If the Israelis hadn't stepped foot on the ship, they never would have been within striking distance of those clubs.

Nage Waza · 05-31-2010, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

What the hell are you talking about Nage? None of those examples have anything to do with the situation at hand. What happened here was that a sovereign nation (Israel) attacked a humanitarian vessel flying the flag of another sovereign nation (Turkey), in international waters, killing up to 19 people in the process. In not a single one of your links was the terrorist act perpetrated by agents acting on behalf of a nation state.

Please try to stay on topic here.

I seemed to have missed the story...just like everyone seems to have missed the stories detailed in my links.
I still have not found the story you refer to about a sovereign nation attacking a humanitarian vessel. I did find the story about Israeli soldiers commandeering a vessel as it attempted to slip through a blockade. Is that what you meant?

Nage Waza · 05-31-2010, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

I would call a nighttime military raid by commandos in which 19 people were killed an "attack" wouldn't you? If the Israelis hadn't stepped foot on the ship, they never would have been within striking distance of those clubs.

This is great! Had the boats never attempted to break Israel's blockade, this never would have happened. In fact, had they done as Israel asked, which was to provide the supplies to the Israeli government for Gaza distribution, just like EVERY other group does, none of this would have occurred.

The real question is was the purpose of this vessel to make this whole situation happen? Sad if true. DUMB if not true.

RougeUnderoos · 05-31-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Are you being serious? The hospital attack was an attempt to free one of the fools that bombed the mosque.
I just did a quick google search and found a bunch, I did not check into the websites in any way shape or form, so use caution:

http://en.trend.az/regions/world/oco...s/1680043.html
http://english.cri.cn/6966/2010/05/10/167s568585.htm
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\05\03\story_3-5-2010_pg7_30
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/bomb-...-khyber-agency
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_208710.html

I could be posting all day. I don't think I saw a single thread on any of these and I am not sure why.

Did I say anything was ignored? Or did I just point something out that was 'true'?

You said "nobody seems to care", which sure sounds like you think it gets ignored to me.

And if you think what you pointed out is true, how could you possibly be posting links all day to atrocities carried out by people who aren't from Israel?

I think the disconnect here is that you seem to think we should be holding fundamentalist lunatics to the same standard we hold the Israeli military. That there should be a discussion here every time some nutcase does something crazy in the Middle East or in Africa, and the fact that there isn't means something perhaps sinister.

The implication appears to be "you guys only bring up something bad when Israel is involved, and then you bash them for it". It's not true.

But it is true that a lot of crazy stuff happens that doesn't get the same amount of coverage as when Israel is involved. You know why? Because Israel is an ally of Canada, a democracy with a functional government and military. They are not a bunch of lunatics with a death wish. When they do something wrong (and some of us think they do wrong occasionally), it is news.

When some crazy son of a bitch attacks a hospital or blows up a house of worship he has some inconsequential theological disagreement with, it's just another day in the news. When an ally and a democracy do something wrong (including apparently killing a Canadian citizen in international waters), it's a big deal.