Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by photon

Heh, I'm sure one could find a set of gods that had mutually exclusive requirements to gain entry to their good place.

Or one could just trust that whatever god there is would be ok with a skeptic that tried their best to live a good life and came by their skepticism honestly as opposed to someone who believed in order to hedge their bets.

So more or less you subscribe to Pascal's wager... By believing that god (if he existed) would be pleased with someone who simply lived a good life, you are (presumably) living as though that god exists. You have everything to gain by doing this and nothing to lose.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Effectively, yes, that's my point.

I think that some of the messages delivered in the bible are important for society, but I think some of them are also wrong.

But, just to be clear, I'm not a believer in the one true almighty.

I think its important to note like you said that the Bible was written many, many years ago in a different world with different people.

Its tough to apply every single thing to us in the 21st century.

Plus, I think certain 'laws' as some people call it like it being a sin to be homosexual does not mean that the government should prohibit gay people from having the same rights as straight people.

The Bible also talks about over-indulging in wine(alcohol)....and I don't see people, even fundamental religious ones saying a law should be making banning the excess consumption of alcohol.

Even amongst Christians 'groups' there are many different variations of how people interpret the 'law.' From being against blood transfusions, to being against drinking coffee, etc, etc.

Being that we live in the 21st century, and in a free country, its impossible for the government to keep up with all that stuff. Which is why I keep saying that the Bible is directed at the individual, and not towards the government.

I think a lot of the 'wrongs' we both see are in the way people misinterpret the Bible and try to use certain passages to pass judgment on other people through the strong hand of the 'law'...or the government.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

So more or less you subscribe to Pascal's wager... By believing that god (if he existed) would be pleased with someone who simply lived a good life, you are (presumably) living as though that god exists. You have everything to gain by doing this and nothing to lose.

Maybe though I guess I'm scorning the one god that values belief over actions.

I'd rather just be good because it's the right thing to do.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

There once was a man who thought he was the son of God
He was born of a virgin mother birth
He healed the sick
He cured the blind
He raised a man from the dead
He was eventually killed for his belief
He rose from the dead

The story sounds familiar except is was Krishna's story written years before the story of Jesus.

Plagerism or coincedence?

Just about every story in the bible can be traced back to the Sumerians of 3500 BC, Great flood. parting of a sea, 10 commandments...etc.

But instead of Jesus they had the Anunnaki, astronauts from Nibiru (planet X) and instead of eden it was the Anunnaki planting their seed that produced humans.

I wonder how many more years the current bible will hold up before it's changed.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

but for the purpose of conversation, lets hear what you want to talk about

I posted a response dear man, It's obvious you read it since you posted after my response!

At least you could do is say "I'm not interested in talking about that!!" Then again you'll just say...I only wanted to hear it, not discuss it!

The "run and hid" and "tip toe" theory lives on! why you guys just don't give up and stop being in threads like this is beyond me.

A friken amazing and totally ignorant!

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

So more or less you subscribe to Pascal's wager... By believing that god (if he existed) would be pleased with someone who simply lived a good life, you are (presumably) living as though that god exists. You have everything to gain by doing this and nothing to lose.

And.
If God made me burn in hell because I couldn't believe him to be real that would make him a very ignorant God. If God was real he should prove that he's real, but lets face facts, when you put your fears of dieing without any afterlife aside...God is imaginary and a fairy tale.

Personally I think is amazing what kind of fear this brings, we swat a bug or step on an ant many times a year and end their life's but even the most devote Christian don't think that life form goes to heaven, but yet humans ( one of 20,000 animals..etc on this planet) do.

[Thor]

Since the discussion is so serious, how about some humor to lighten things up.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by T@T

Just about every story in the bible can be traced back to the Sumerians of 3500 BC, Great flood. parting of a sea, 10 commandments...etc.

Not even close, there are a few stories which have occasional similarities, but not that close. And even if they were, what would make it that the bible was not the plagirized truth? Actual dates of events are not known for certain, and with the spreading of society after Babel there are going to be similarities in historical stories.

That or the Architect just keeps trying new versions of the Matrix. This would be the 5th attempt?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Thor

Since the discussion is so serious, how about some humor to lighten things up.

Perfect example of Poe's law.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by speede5

Not even close, there are a few stories which have occasional similarities, but not that close. And even if they were, what would make it that the bible was not the plagirized truth? Actual dates of events are not known for certain, and with the spreading of society after Babel there are going to be similarities in historical stories.

That or the Architect just keeps trying new versions of the Matrix. This would be the 5th attempt?

Babel? For real?

While historians, anthropologists, archaeologists and other scientists may not be able to pinpoint which day of the week certain historical events occurred on, there are multiple, independent, lines of evidence providing experts comfort in proposed date for historical events.

It is not just radio-carbon dating, but vastly different techniques such as stratigraphy, dendrochronology, linguistics and genetics can all be used to estimate dates for historical events and/or artifacts.

What's amazing is how well they all correlate.

Events such as Noah's Ark, Babel, the garden of Eden have no grounding in any of the empirical sciences.

~bug

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

What?
According to yer man here we are not to take the virgin birth and the ressurection literally.
What is this Christianity you believe in?
It isn't anything like the one that I believe.
Without those two then it isn't God. It isn't miraculous.
I don't find it hard to believe that a God who could create the Universe could also create a Virgin birth and a ressurection. You forget that God created physics and natural science and isn't constrained by them.
I don't know about the God you believe in but my God is a big God, a powerful God and all things are possible through him.

How old is the planet?

Do you believe man shares ancestry with apes?

What Church are you a member of?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

"The answer 'I don't know' isn't exactly satisfying - but it's an honest answer. For some, belief is enough. Others want facts and proof... "

Well there is certainly no facts or proof with the statement I don't know now is there? Believe the fallacy if you wish. Some day you will have to answer for it.

So, the scientist who says "I don't know, we haven't developed a theory that fully explains the big bang" is somehow inferior to a Christian who says "I don't know therefore it must have been God's work?

I'd also like to know which branch of Christianity teaches that God is responsible for the Big Bang.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by photon

Heh, I'm sure one could find a set of gods that had mutually exclusive requirements to gain entry to their good place.

Or one could just trust that whatever god there is would be ok with a skeptic that tried their best to live a good life and came by their skepticism honestly as opposed to someone who believed in order to hedge their bets.

This!!

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by T@T

I posted a response dear man, It's obvious you read it since you posted after my response!

At least you could do is say "I'm not interested in talking about that!!" Then again you'll just say...I only wanted to hear it, not discuss it!

The "run and hid" and "tip toe" theory lives on! why you guys just don't give up and stop being in threads like this is beyond me.

A friken amazing and totally ignorant!

relax, im back.
ok so the flood.
you asked if i believe it happened and when?
i think some form of it happened, no earlier than 4000 years ago, possibly further back depending on how years were counted.
it says in the bible there was a canopy over the earth(ie water/cloud) and waters came up from the deep. maybe it was a regional flood or it was a full flood of the earth. it is possible that the water flattened out the land (or it was flatter) thus allowing for it to be flooded. if the dinasours were around before the flood, they might have been saved but not able to survive due to the removal of the canopy over the earth. the flood could have moved fossils around. of course the problem is there is not a huge layer of all kinds of fossils (or we havent found it yet).
also as someone else mentioned, stories of things such as a big flood were found in other cultures/societies.
i don't understand the plagerizing thing, its not plagerizing if you are writing about the same event from your point of view. these stories got passed down for generations, so some exaggeration may have happened.
anyways, t@t i think it happened to some extent, and the bible would say about 4000 years ago, but there may be exaggerations or different methods of counting years used over time. its not important how it happened or when though. its that mankind got to a point so bad and evil that God had to wipe the evil out, then promised it would never again. (and im sure there are other things that are learned from it, but others can probably elaborate more if you'd like)

sorry for taking so long, i have been avoiding writing long posts since i injured myself, and the conversation had already shifted to something else by the time i sat down to write. but then you reminded me. so there you go

[photon]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

it says in the bible there was a canopy over the earth(ie water/cloud) and waters came up from the deep.

That's because the Hebrew cosmology of the world was very different.

http://imgur.com/syxwj

The problem with a vapour canopy is if it did exist it would trap so much heat that it would boil the earth. A canopy with enough water to raise the ocean level 12 inches would raise the earth's temperature to over 100 degrees C.

Glenn Morton is a Christian and has written about this:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/canopy.htm

Most creationists don't put much merit in the canopy idea anymore.

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

it is possible that the water flattened out the land (or it was flatter) thus allowing for it to be flooded.

Well the current ocean floor is covered with water and yet there are huge mountain ranges, all kinds of stuff down there, no indication if things flattening out.

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

the flood could have moved fossils around.

Fossils are trapped in rocks, not sure how you expect this to happen. If you dig a fossil out of the side of a mountain you'd have to move around the whole thing to move it.

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

of course the problem is there is not a huge layer of all kinds of fossils (or we havent found it yet).

You don't have to have a single column in one place in order to reconstruct it. Portions of the geological column overlap so it can easily be reconstructed.

But if that isn't enough, the entire geological column does exist and has been found. Again from Morton:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/geo.htm

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

also as someone else mentioned, stories of things such as a big flood were found in other cultures/societies.

That supports a global flood as much as saying stories about stars in other cultures supports a ancient space-faring civilization. Flood stories are common because living by rivers makes good sense for early civilizations and rivers flood.

The flood referred to in the Bible is either a local flood, or a myth (or two myths actually, if you dig into the original Hebrew most scholars think there are two separate accounts that have been merged to produce the flood account) written to make a theological point about the nature of god and man.

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

anyways, t@t i think it happened to some extent, and the bible would say about 4000 years ago, but there may be exaggerations or different methods of counting years used over time. its not important how it happened or when though. its that mankind got to a point so bad and evil that God had to wipe the evil out, then promised it would never again. (and im sure there are other things that are learned from it, but others can probably elaborate more if you'd like)

It doesn't matter how far back you put it, there is zero evidence of a global flood. It doesn't exist in the geological column.

DNA puts an end to this very easily. Any time a population is reduced to a small number of individuals something called a genetic bottleneck occurs. These are detectable, and have been detected in species that have been known to come close to extinction.

If there was a global flood that reduced the population of all extant species on earth to a few (two or seven or nine or whatever) individuals, that would be completely detectable genetically. It would appear in every species, even humans, and would appear at the same timespan in the past.

However that doesn't exist at all, so regardless of anything else, there was no shared genetic bottleneck in all extant species on earth at any time in the past.

[SeeBass]

I believe that the longest you can make a wodden boat is about 200 ft

Just being picky but how did Noah fit all the animals in?

[speede5]

Originally Posted by photon

DNA puts an end to this very easily. Any time a population is reduced to a small number of individuals something called a genetic bottleneck occurs. These are detectable, and have been detected in species that have been known to come close to extinction.

Bottlenecks aren't an exact science. Makes for quite liberal postulations. I wouldn't stand behind that as proof of anything.

[photon]

Originally Posted by speede5

Bottlenecks aren't an exact science. Makes for quite liberal postulations. I wouldn't stand behind that as proof of anything.

Nothing is exact, everything has error bars. An inexact result would be detecting it in only most species, or there being a variation in the time in the past the bottleneck occurred, or it being drown out due to more recent things for that population.

But instead there is zero.

Which is evidence that it didn't happen, one bit of evidence among much against it and zero for it.

And proof is the domain of math, not science.

EDIT: Does it matter if the global flood is an actual historical event or a myth for communicating a truth about god and man?

[speede5]

Originally Posted by photon

Nothing is exact, everything has error bars.

Which is why i have a hard time with people using science as their absolute proof there is no God.

EDIT: Does it matter if the global flood is an actual historical event or a myth for communicating a truth about god and man?

If you are a Christian and are going to use the Bible as the foundation of your faith, yes.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

relax, im back.
ok so the flood.
you asked if i believe it happened and when?
i think some form of it happened, no earlier than 4000 years ago, possibly further back depending on how years were counted.
it says in the bible there was a canopy over the earth(ie water/cloud) and waters came up from the deep. maybe it was a regional flood or it was a full flood of the earth. it is possible that the water flattened out the land (or it was flatter) thus allowing for it to be flooded. if the dinasours were around before the flood, they might have been saved but not able to survive due to the removal of the canopy over the earth. the flood could have moved fossils around. of course the problem is there is not a huge layer of all kinds of fossils (or we havent found it yet).
also as someone else mentioned, stories of things such as a big flood were found in other cultures/societies.
i don't understand the plagerizing thing, its not plagerizing if you are writing about the same event from your point of view. these stories got passed down for generations, so some exaggeration may have happened.
anyways, t@t i think it happened to some extent, and the bible would say about 4000 years ago, but there may be exaggerations or different methods of counting years used over time. its not important how it happened or when though. its that mankind got to a point so bad and evil that God had to wipe the evil out, then promised it would never again. (and im sure there are other things that are learned from it, but others can probably elaborate more if you'd like)

sorry for taking so long, i have been avoiding writing long posts since i injured myself, and the conversation had already shifted to something else by the time i sat down to write. but then you reminded me. so there you go

That's quite the post
Since I now have a headache. I'm just ask you to use a search engine and look up the evidence of mass floods over the years.
Hint, major floods can be seen back at least three ice ages or about 40,000 years (none were absolute global) and the last one was long before man could even chisel the event into a wall of a cave let alone write about it in a book.