Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

I do not agree with your claims of correctness

I didn't claim any correctness, I said your claims about what science says are incorrect.

It doesn't matter if you agree or not, they're still incorrect.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

and you are posturing.

I'm assuming an exaggerated position? What have I exaggerated?

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

You nit pick with semantics as if that were conclusive proof.

I haven't nitpicked any semantics, I said you were outright wrong about what you say science says. I haven't claimed proof of anything, you were the one making claims about what science says.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

You present elitist constructs as if they had never been challenged.

I haven't presented anything though, I just pointed out what you presented wasn't an accurate representation of what science says.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Your criticisms come across as conjecture and opinion.

So substantiate your claims then. Please show where science makes the claims about how the big bang started that you attribute to science.

[Frank MetaMusil]

You know what's hilarious about all of this? A priest started the big bang theory.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

You know what's hilarious about all of this? A priest started the big bang theory.

Yeah, I saw a biography on him, french guy I think. his mom wanted him to be a priest and he wanted to be a Physicist...so he did both!

[photon]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

God does provide truth to all who truly seek it.

But there are plenty of people who have truly sought and have never found it. Some have spent decades of their lives, been in ministry, done many things in the church, but have never had god provide truth.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

It requires faith to understand that which is of the spirit. You require proof. God came down among us, lived amongst us and "proved" he was God and still there were unbelievers. God wishes for those who follow him to do so by faith. Satan and his demons believe there is a God as they lived with him but rebeled against him.

I understand all of that. I've preached it.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Basically God doesn't care whether you believe in him or not.

Well belief is necessary for salvation, and god wants everyone to be saved.. if god didn't care then he wouldn't have made any effort at all.

"'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'They replied, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.'"


"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."



"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."


"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."


"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."


"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

What he is seeking is relationship.

Great, many people have sought out that relationship with no response.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

See faith explained above

And that's fine, if you want to just take your position as correct by faith, as long as you are honest about that I have no problem with that. Muslims and Mormons and everyone else all say the same thing too.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

I could give a good answer for that one but I'll leave it to your imagination.

You said that I wanted to "leave it there", I asked for you to point out where I said I wanted to leave it, and your reply is you could give a good answer but that I should imagine one instead?

That makes no sense at all.

So try again, what's your good answer?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

God does provide truth to all who truly seek it. It requires faith to understand that which is of the spirit. You require proof. God came down among us, lived amongst us and "proved" he was God and still there were unbelievers. God wishes for those who follow him to do so by faith. Satan and his demons believe there is a God as they lived with him but rebeled against him. Basically God doesn't care whether you believe in him or not. What he is seeking is relationship.

Based on what? You're stating fiction as if it is fact.

Basically what you're doing is the same as me saying "God's favorite colour is purple." How do you know what God cares about?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Basically God doesn't care whether you believe in him or not.

But you already said something about how god loves us more than we can know. Which way is it? I mean if he doesn't care about some of us spending an eternity in hell, that doesn't sound like a lot of love there.

Fascinating that you can speak for such an entity though.

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by photon

I understand all of that. I've preached it.

Ahh a dissillusioned man of the cloth.
Were you a believer once or was it just a career decision for you?
Was it a calling and how did you know it was a calling?
If so what is your opinion of that calling now? Were you deceived, misinterpreted the calling or just thought this would be a cool gig for a while?
What kind of ministry were you involved in? Church? Charity? Missionary?
Why did you become so dissillusioned? What happened to cause you to abandon your faith?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

You know what's hilarious about all of this? A priest started the big bang theory.

And many scientists didn't like the idea either because they knew it would be used (misused?) by some people to try and support their beliefs. Even the priest didn't want that.

They accepted though it because the evidence supported it.

The Pope at the time was going to use Lemaître's (the priest) work to "prove" god existed, and Lemaître was strongly against that.

http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...fm?recnum=8847

[photon]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Ahh a dissillusioned man of the cloth.

I never said I was a minister.

I assume based behaviour you've modeled for me that I can safely ignore the rest of your questions?

I never read a scripture where Jesus ignored questions and changed the subject when things didn't go right. Maybe that was in one of the gospels that didn't make it into the canon.

ETA: If I felt that you were truly interested in the answers I would definitely respond (as I've responded to others many times here), but the attitude that comes through your posts sounds more like you're just trying to dig for ammunition.. If it's not intentional I apologize and look forward to something more honest and meaningful.

[Smelly Fred]

Photon
You said you have preached on the Bible or the topic at hand.
What exactly did you preach. Now surely that question is wriggle proof and direct.
You claimed to preach, please elaborate.

[photon]

Main Entry: preach
Pronunciation: \ˈprēch\
Function: verb
1 : to deliver a sermon

I have delivered sermons to churches from the pulpit, that's what the word means.

As to exactly what I preached, I preached the Bible, about many different topics, I can't be exact because I can't write out every sermon.

ETA: If you mean what did I preach with respect to god coming down and satan rebelling and such yes I preached that, pretty much as you said it.

I was never in full time ministry in the five fold ministry, though I held many different positions of responsibility. I don't think a decades long resume is really relevant is it?

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by photon

I never said I was a minister.

ETA: If I felt that you were truly interested in the answers I would definitely respond (as I've responded to others many times here), but the attitude that comes through your posts sounds more like you're just trying to dig for ammunition.. If it's not intentional I apologize and look forward to something more honest and meaningful.

I see whan I am accused of avoiding questions it is wrong and I must be held to account by you. When you do so you are justified because the person debating you is just digging for ammunition.

Write the rules to suit yourself often do you? Like to stack the deck perhaps?
It would seem I must pass some integrity litmus test by you in order to receive an answer. I didn't read the rule book before I logged on. I'm sorry but I missed that meeting. Could you forward the minutes so I can catch up?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

I see whan I am accused of avoiding questions it is wrong and I must be held to account by you. When you do so you are justified because the person debating you is just digging for ammunition.

I'm not holding you to account, I'm choosing to do unto you as you have done unto me.

If you aren't digging for ammunition, how else do you explain ignoring questions and statements and selectively choosing what to reply to and what to ignore?

Honestly, I am curious, because I myself am pretty much incapable of doing that unless I make a significant effort.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Write the rules to suit yourself often do you? Like to stack the deck perhaps?

Obviously not, because I've replied completely and comprehensively to everything you've posted to me for many pages, and am only now deciding what to respond to in response to pages of having questions and points ignored. Plus I'm being completely open and transparent about why I'm doing it.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

It would seem I must pass some integrity litmus test by you in order to receive an answer. I didn't read the rule bopok before I logged on. I'm sorry but I missed that meeting. Could you forward the minutes so I can catch up?

Again obviously incorrect, because again I've replied completely and comprehensively, treating you the same as I would treat anyone else, until the number of unanswered questions and points got to the point that I had to question if you were really interested in an honest discussion.

If you honestly want someone to answer your questions, you should do unto them and answer theirs.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

You require proof. God came down among us, lived amongst us and "proved" he was God and still there were unbelievers.

Could it be the "unbelievers" required a little more proof than what he did?

If I walked into your office tomorrow said "I am God" would you believe me? hopefully you ask for some proof. I would then show you "proof"

1) my mother is a virgin (Yeah OK, alrighty then)
2) I will heal the sick for you (Hmmm, where have we seen that before)
3) I will turn water into wine (sorry, saw that trick in a Vegas act)
4) I will walk on water (are you related to David Copperfield or Chris Mindfreak?)

In Matthew:
"I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

Why didn't he move the damn mountain himself since it was so easy to do? He claimed to be God afterall. Even move it 5 feet and leave it. At least then there would be everlasting proof he could do miracles.

There isn't one so-called "miracle" that Jesus did that can't be explained away in a heartbeat...not one!

Jesus was no different than Peter Popoff, Oral Roberts..etc...all phony baloney's.

[Smelly Fred]

Photon
So you were a layman preacher I take it. Actually I find that very interesting and not in the jaundiced manner which you have interpreted. I am interested in peoples journey of faith either towards or away from God. You believe I shall berate you and use that against you but I respect your decision.
I believe people come by their faith or lack of honestly.
I would be genuinely interested in hearing (or reading) why you lost your faith. There must have been something which triggered this. If it is some tragedy I apologise in my ignorance and of course you are under no obligation to share that here. If it causes you discomfort or pain you need post no more about it.
I say so sincerely and honestly and with no malice. Do not interpet my passion for animosity because that is not my intent I assure you.

[Smelly Fred]

[QUOTE=photon;2510114]I'm not holding you to account, I'm choosing to do unto you as you have done unto me.

"If you aren't digging for ammunition, how else do you explain ignoring questions and statements and selectively choosing what to reply to and what to ignore?"

PHOTON
I am not here solely for your amusement and I am under no obligation to answer each and every question fielded to me. There are mutiple posters fielding these questions and unless I hire a secretary to answer my mail I won't answer every query. I realise I'm a fascinating character but I can only spread myself around so much. (I guess I have to start using emoticons for some of the posters here as they don't know when I talk "ex cathedra")
I answer those questions which interest me.
I think that explanation should suffice.

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by T@T

Could it be the "unbelievers" required a little more proof than what he did?

If I walked into your office tomorrow said "I am God" would you believe me? hopefully you ask for some proof. I would then show you "proof"

1) my mother is a virgin (Yeah OK, alrighty then)
2) I will heal the sick for you (Hmmm, where have we seen that before)
3) I will turn water into wine (sorry, saw that trick in a Vegas act)
4) I will walk on water (are you related to David Copperfield or Chris Mindfreak?)

In Matthew:
"I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

Why didn't he move the damn mountain himself since it was so easy to do? He claimed to be God afterall. Even move it 5 feet and leave it. At least then there would be everlasting proof he could do miracles.

There isn't one so-called "miracle" that Jesus did that can't be explained away in a heartbeat...not one!

Jesus was no different than Peter Popoff, Oral Roberts..etc...all phony baloney's.

T@T
With all respect that was purely your opinion. That is what I see as an atheist viewpoint - pure opinion. They attempt to make it sound technical and scientific but it always ends up as opinion.
When confronted by the difficult questions such as explain the origins of the Big Bang the same answer arrives "I don't know becuse no one has figured it out yet" And people base a major life decision on that answer?
And you claim we believe in fairy tales?
ROFLMAO! Tell me another one. You're killing me.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

I answer those questions which interest me.
I think that explanation should suffice.

So does this mean you were only joking when you said "Bring it on Boys"

Oh well, there goes another one.

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by T@T

So does this mean you were only joking when you said "Bring it on Boys"

Oh well, there goes another one.

Was there anything you did not understand in my reply T@T?
If you would like I could dissect it letter by letter and we could study it.
Again I am not here for your amusement. I choose what I write not you.
I know you can't get enough of me but come on, a guy has got to sleep sometime you know.

[photon]

"I would be genuinely interested in hearing (or reading) why you lost your faith."

Layman preacher I guess is as good a term as any, I often preached at the request of the pastor, or when we went on mission trips I preached as well. I led youth and young adult groups which involved teaching.

As to how I lost my faith, the question doesn't cause me discomfort or pain, any more than probably asking you how you gained yours does.

I can honestly say what triggered it was a desire to learn more about my faith. I wanted to know why I believed what I did, and how the church came to believe what it did, and make sure what I believed was founded on something rather than just because that's what I was taught by someone else.

So I studied church history. I studied the Bible, actually reading what it says rather than reading what other people say it says. Reading books by themselves rather than picking scriptures out of different books and combining them. I started to think about the big questions which I had that didn't seem to be addressed by scripture, think about observations which seemed to contradict scripture.

This took a long time, so there was no event.. no tragedy, no point or no day that I can point to and say "that is when I stopped believing what I used to believe", it was a very gradual process.

And the process hasn't stopped, I don't claim to be an atheist, and since I've changed my views once I'm willing to have them changed again.

But by learning about the history of the Christian church and the history of the Bible and the text of the New Testament itself I learned that the Bible is a very human document full of widely varying viewpoints and discrepancies, and the church is a very human organization.

Not that they are without worth, the Bible and religions show man's history of striving to understand himself and the world around him and have produced much beauty and goodness.

But I also concluded that the god specifically described in the Bible does not exist. There may be some other kind of god but that god is quite different than the one described in the bible.

Which is introspectively interesting to me, a great many Christians do not depend on "Sola scriptura" and still retain their Christian faith, but I could not.