Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by T@T

Typical tip-toe threw the tulips

You were the one who said "bring it on"

I say GAME ON!

I want to debate your bible and every fairy tale in it, I know if I truly believe in something I never have a problem debating those beliefs but anytime a Christian is asked to debate his/hers beliefs they run and hide...you sir are no different.

The true problem lies that even Christians don't believe in the fairy tales written in the bible, it's the weakness and fear that make then run and hide.

arrogant much?
go ahead sir, what 'fairy tales' do you want to discuss?

edit: also, its not a matter of running and hiding, or weakness and fear (generalizing) but of why should i argue with you? why should i defend myself or my beliefs against some random arrogant poster who clearly is set in their mind no matter what.

but for the purpose of conversation, lets hear what you want to talk about

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Azure

I can't decide if your arrogance is worse than his.

Pick me...I have broad shoulders. And I don't run and hide.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

arrogant much?
go ahead sir, what 'fairy tales' do you want to discuss?

Hmmm where to start.

How about The Great Flood (Genesis).

Did it happen and when?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

why should i defend myself or my beliefs against some random arrogant poster who clearly is set in their mind no matter what.

but for the purpose of conversation, lets hear what you want to talk about

It's not an argument...it's a debate, if you truly believe whats in the bible you should be able to discuss it with anyone.

Whats arrogant about that?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by T@T

It's not an argument...it's a debate, if you truly believe whats in the bible you should be able to discuss it with anyone.

Whats arrogant about that?

The part where you put all Christians into the same boat.

Some of us like to challenge our beliefs and are actually up for these debates. But I already know how you'll respond so why bother?

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by Azure

I can't decide if your arrogance is worse than his.

That is the kind of answer that put me off church goers for so long. That kiind of stiff necked shoot your own prisoners attitude demonstrated by this poster. Obviously Azure has never heard of tongue in cheek humour and concepts like irony and satire. Someone give him a sense of humour transplant immediately.
My posting style seems to embarrass his highnesse's sensibilities.
He also doesn't demonstrate much of the most important Christian characteristic which is grace.
Now you know why there is so much criticism against Christians when we have wolves in sheeps clothing like this poor exhibit.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Azure

The part where you put all Christians into the same boat.

Some of us like to challenge our beliefs and are actually up for these debates. But I already know how you'll respond so why bother?

In one hand you want to challenge your beliefs but in the other hand since you already know my part of the debate it's...why bother

Proves my point.

Edit: P.S my better half is a devot Christian, she also knows that I think it's a bunch a crap, she goes to church, I obviously don't, we never talk or debate our beliefs and we get along like peanut butter and jam....so no I don't put all Christians into the same boat.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by T@T

Hmmm where to start.

How about The Great Flood (Genesis).

Did it happen and when?

Maybe, isn't it possible that some biblical stories are based on perception at the time

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0907150931.htm

Prof. Beer was part of the team on board "Mediterranean Explorer" that recently headed to the Black Sea off the coast of Turkey, the site where historians believe the great biblical flood occurred. EcoOcean and an international team believe they have found evidence to substantiate what is written in the Bible.
Says Weil, "We found that indeed a flood happened around that time. From core samples, we see that a flood broke through the natural barrier separating the Mediterranean Sea and the freshwater Black Sea, bringing with it seashells that only grow in a marine environment. There was no doubt that it was a fast flood -- one that covered an expanse four times the size of Israel. It might not have been Noah, as it is written in the Bible, but we believe people in that region had to build boats in order to save their animals from drowning. We think that the ones who survived were fishermen -- they already had the boats."

[peter12]

Originally Posted by T@T

I think he killed a goat instead, what do I think of the story? Either it was just another bible story or Abraham was a sick man with the need to kill...the world is full of them...there's your "olah"

As for Kierkegaard, I don't remember much about him, I haven't been in school for over 30 years

My point is... it's more complicated than either of you are treating it. These stories ask some very fundamental questions about human existence in relation to the divine.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Maybe, isn't it possible that some biblical stories are based on perception at the time

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0907150931.htm

Exactly, in those days people couldn't see what was happening even 300 miles away let alone on the edge of the earth (since the earth was flat)

Hardly a massive flood of global proportions now was it, a natural barrier gives out and floods a low lying area that happenens to be populated and now the small boats they built to survive turn into a massive ark that held a million species of plants and animals.

Yep, and the first trout I caught as a kid was 14lbs monster when in reality it was a little pan fryer.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by peter12

My point is... it's more complicated than either of you are treating it. These stories ask some very fundamental questions about human existence in relation to the divine.

I understand that, I was brought up a Christian and know they teach the story behind the story. doesn't change the fact they still try an have you believe in the story itself.

And to me the divine is yourself, if you listen to yourself you'll be a good caring person to others.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by T@T

Edit: P.S my better half is a devot Christian, she also knows that I think it's a bunch a crap, she goes to church, I obviously don't, we never talk or debate our beliefs and we get along like peanut butter and jam....so no I don't put all Christians into the same boat.

A couple questions T@T: Does your better half think you will burn in hell because you're not saved?

If so, how could you live with a person who thinks you will burn in hell forever, but makes no effort to save you from this fate? Wouldn't that make her the worst kind of person in the world? And, if not, how devout could she be?

Secondly, you clearly don't respect Christian theology, yet your better half is apparently a devout believer in this theology. How can you respect her?

[photon]

Originally Posted by DionPlett

What do you say about people that we've all known as friends and that have had obvious life changing experiences and are now Christians?

Changing one's life is about taking action and support and accountability, social structure can provide that, the Christian church is one that can provide that.

What do you say about people that have had obvious life changing experiences and are now Muslims? Hindus? Buddhists? Agnostics?

All of those have similar accounts of life changing experiences. That would suggest that it's not the work of the specific Christian god or Christian church.. that either it's a social phenomenon, a psychological phenomenon (i.e. belief in belief) or something divine but not specific to Christianity.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

To those who seek however it is promised that they shall find truth and truth will set them free. That freedom is absolutely wonderful.

If it's promised that those that seek will find truth, why is it then that not everyone who seeks finds truth?

Are you a Calvinist?

[Smelly Fred]

No I am not a Calvinist.
Some people think they have the truth but they are being blinded at the time. Their perception is that they are not blind and will argue they are not.
Fair enough, if that is where you wish to leave it. God does not impose himself on another. We are all free moral agents.
I repect your belief even though I don't agree with it.
I believe we have the right to agree to disagree. I am not threatened by those who do not agree with me and wish to live peacefully in co-existence with them.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Photon
Instead of sitting on the sidelines, shooting from the hip and critiquing posters postulations

I'm hardly on the sidelines, I've been involved and have specifically replied to everything directed at me (which disappointingly you do not seem to have the consideration to do in return, instead ignoring direct questions and replying only superficially).

I'm not shooting from the hip, the topic is something I've spent a considerable amount of time learning about and discussing.

And I wasn't critiquing your postulations, I was pointing out that your postulations were incorrect and not valid for the basis of an argument.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

why don't you give your explanation of the origins of the Big Bang?

I don't know, maybe because I think you'll be better off if you spent the effort to learn about it yourself? Or maybe because I don't feel overly inclined to answer a direct question when you've ignored a dozen questions/points I've asked/raised.

Or maybe there's no answer to the question yet because of insufficient information and insufficient understanding. "I don't know" is a perfectly legitimate answer you know.. just because the answer isn't known at this moment in time doesn't mean "therefore god". Once upon a time no one understood why the river flooded sometimes, so the answer was "therefore god".

[photon]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

No I am not a Calvinist.

So then why would god not provide the truth to all that seek it? I asked if you were a Calvinist because they do have an answer to that (not one that I find very compelling, but at least it's an attempt).

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Some people think they have the truth but they are being blinded at the time. Their perception is that they are not blind and will argue they are not.

So how do you know that it is them that is blinded and not yourself? Wouldn't your argument be that you are not blind?

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Fair enough, if that is where you wish to leave it. God does not impose himself on another. We are all free moral agents.

Where did I say I wanted to leave it? Leave it where?

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by driveway

A couple questions T@T: Does your better half think you will burn in hell because you're not saved?

If so, how could you live with a person who thinks you will burn in hell forever, but makes no effort to save you from this fate? Wouldn't that make her the worst kind of person in the world? And, if not, how devout could she be?

Secondly, you clearly don't respect Christian theology, yet your better half is apparently a devout believer in this theology. How can you respect her?

Driveway
If T@T' wife believes that and loves him how do you think she handles that? Do you not understand that she has anguish over that very question and is praying daily for her spouse. On the other hand she can't turn her home into a battlefield and her witness will be her life because she knows her spouse will be watching her very attentively to see if she practises what she preaches so to speak.
One must earn the right to share their faith. We can't go around bludgeoning people with it.
Many couples are in this situation and find a way to live together. There are more women in churches than men so their men must be at home and one presumes not believing as they do.

I can't speak for T@T but I would imagine he puts his theological differences aside when it is his wife. He is obviously not prejudicial or it would become a major issue. We may write on forums such as this but in real life how many of us have this discussion openly with friends and family?
I find there are occasions when the opportunity is there but again if my friend believes as T@T does, and I do have atheist friends, then I value that friendship and do not wish to be constantly in dispute with my friend. If my friend wishes to discuss the topic rationally and without it becoming heated then it will happen and can be a fascinating exchange of ideas. If it becomes angry and nasty as this subject sometimes can then it is not profitable to debate. I have found by experience that both parties come away from the discussion still believing as they did at the start of the discussion and the only thing which has changed is bad feeling. That kind of discussion is to be avoided. It serves no purpose.

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by photon

And I wasn't critiquing your postulations, I was pointing out that your postulations were incorrect and not valid for the basis of an argument.

I do not agree with your claims of correctness and you are posturing. You nit pick with semantics as if that were conclusive proof. You present elitist constructs as if they had never been challenged.
Phooey I say Sir!
Your criticisms come across as conjecture and opinion.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by driveway

A couple questions T@T: Does your better half think you will burn in hell because you're not saved?

If so, how could you live with a person who thinks you will burn in hell forever, but makes no effort to save you from this fate? Wouldn't that make her the worst kind of person in the world? And, if not, how devout could she be?

Secondly, you clearly don't respect Christian theology, yet your better half is apparently a devout believer in this theology. How can you respect her?

Like I said we don't even bring it up, she takes an old family friend to church on Sundays and I usually play golf or hang with you guys...perfect world

And maybe she figures since I was baptised and confirmed that somehow I'll be saved from "burning in hell" but since she knows I don't believe in hell she's probably just silently praying for my soul.

I respect her because she's a great lady and is good to me, She could pray to wall, an alligator or a giant dildo for all I care as long as she continues love me, I'll love her.

And I don't disrespect Christians or religious people in general, I don't agree with it and think it causes more harm than good but I respect a good person no matter what their beliefs. I do disrespect people trying to jam it down my throat and then running away like a scared child when I give them my theories.

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by photon

So then why would god not provide the truth to all that seek it? I asked if you were a Calvinist because they do have an answer to that (not one that I find very compelling, but at least it's an attempt).

God does provide truth to all who truly seek it. It requires faith to understand that which is of the spirit. You require proof. God came down among us, lived amongst us and "proved" he was God and still there were unbelievers. God wishes for those who follow him to do so by faith. Satan and his demons believe there is a God as they lived with him but rebeled against him. Basically God doesn't care whether you believe in him or not. What he is seeking is relationship.

Originally Posted by photon

"So how do you know that it is them that is blinded and not yourself? Wouldn't your argument be that you are not blind?").

See faith explained above

Originally Posted by photon

Where did I say I wanted to leave it? Leave it where?

I could give a good answer for that one but I'll leave it to your imagination.