I'm not sure the rates of theists converting to atheism are all that high. In this I'm talking about adult, informed theists and not the teenager that starts to formulate their own beliefs and question why they were taken to church when they were 5.
To be an adult, informed theist you have to be practically invulnerable to logic, so yeah, those people aren't likely to change their minds. The people who might change their minds are the ones who haven't really thought about why they believe what they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
When you start your argument by telling a person of faith that they might as well be praying to a sphagetti monster, or a flying pig who eats donkey sandwiches, your actually insulting a persons beliefs or belief system, and believe it or not thats actually really really insulting.
Hey, that's a valid argument. If it's insulting, well... sometimes the truth can hurt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
I've stated many times, that if religion had never formed, humanity would have merely killed for a different reason.
Hypothesis contrary to fact... you don't know that this is true, it is merely a hypothesis.
The thing I don't understand about atheism is why atheists even care about god and religion. I've grown from being a vague Christian to a vague atheist in the last 5 years or so. As I move towards atheism, I care less and less about religion and the afterlife and care more about this life (namely art and philosophy). I just can't get up for a God debate anymore.
Your post shows more of what I would call the standard atheist or moderate atheist position. The live and let live type atheism which was that of people like Bertrand Russel.
The new atheism of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris etc is the New atheism and is evangelical in it's approach. They feel that religion is an evil influence on the world and must be stopped. They must gain adherents in their crusade and as such this message has become increasingly strident and divisive.
I have read on blogs and boards where atheists debate the difference in old school atheism and the in your face aggresive form of new atheism. For me a true atheist shouldn't be bothered what other people believe as they have made up their minds. The problem is that their only form of expression is to debate theists to reinforce their beliefs.
As for atheism being a harmless belief what about Communism? It was/is atheistic to it's roots and even banned religion in some states in what was supposed to be a matrialistic paradise. Their wars were as much about being anti religous as they were political. What about the French Revolution and the reign of terror where priests were rounded up and sent to the gullotine? Churches were used to stable horses and religion was banned. What about Pol Pot? Stalin, Mao? Hitler also sanitized religion to make it a state religion which was Nazism. Any opponents were sent to concentration camps. Many Christians were killed because of their opposition to Hitler and his faux religion. The USSR did the same thing with the Orthodoz church in order to appear to the world that they were liberal in their views but they were anything but.
This however is no indictment against atheists just as so called religous wars do not equate to religion being evil. It isn't that simple. The human condition is selfish if it does not have a moral compass.
Look to the aid work that was done in Haiti. What would it have been like if Christian aid charities had not been some of the first helpers on the scene? Not only did they help physically but did so spiritually by giving the people hope.
How could the cold hard message of atheism have lifted those people out of their sorrow and gave them the encouragement to rebuild their nation.
In such times people look to a higher power to comfort them and help them.
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How could the cold hard message of atheism have lifted those people out of their sorrow and gave them the encouragement to rebuild their nation.
In such times people look to a higher power to comfort them and help them.
Not necessarily so. A love for humanity in this world is enough of a comfort for others.
Hey, I love being human. I'd even call myself as classical a humanist as possible given the circumstances, but I don't fool myself with the illusion that if we all renounced belief in our own seperate deities we'd all link hands and sing "We Are the World."
Hey, I love being human. I'd even call myself as classical a humanist as possible given the circumstances, but I don't fool myself with the illusion that if we all renounced belief in our own seperate deities we'd all link hands and sing "We Are the World."
I still like you.
I didn't say it works for everyone. Different strokes for different folks.
I didn't say it works for everyone. Different strokes for different folks.
He hath disgraced me, and hindered me half a million, laughed at my losses, mocked at my gains, scorned my nation, thwarted my bargains, cooled my friends, heated mine enemies; and what's his reason? I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
For me a true atheist shouldn't be bothered what other people believe as they have made up their minds.
This contradicts what you said earlier, some people think that religious indoctrination and thought is harmful to humanity, and then you say they shouldn't be bothered by what other people believe.
You answered your own question.
Plus we're a social species, we depend on communication with others to live let alone be mentally healthy, communicating our thoughts and ideas to each other are what we do. Why is this all of a sudden a bad thing when someone tries to communicate something some people don't agree with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
As for atheism being a harmless belief what about Communism?
This canard is so old and tired it's sad it still gets trotted out. It's about as relevant as all these "atheistic" madmen all having mustaches. Fear the evil mustache!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
This however is no indictment against atheists just as so called religous wars do not equate to religion being evil. It isn't that simple.
Wait, I just thought you lined up a bunch of regimes and tried to imply that they had atheistic roots.
"Hey I'm going to paint everyone over here with this broad brush, but don't paint these guys over there with a broad brush ok? It's not that simple".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
The human condition is selfish if it does not have a moral compass.
Good thing that it has a moral compass then isn't it? A moral compass that is independent of any particular religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
Look to the aid work that was done in Haiti. What would it have been like if Christian aid charities had not been some of the first helpers on the scene? Not only did they help physically but did so spiritually by giving the people hope.
"Some of the first helpers", by some you mean among the other non-Christian aid charities that were also there among the first helpers, or the other non-Christian aid charities that have had a long established presence in Haiti?
It doesn't sound like actual information you are providing here, just propaganda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
How could the cold hard message of atheism have lifted those people out of their sorrow and gave them the encouragement to rebuild their nation.
How absurd can you be?
Do you think Doctors Without Borders is like the Christian charities, preaching atheism to the victims while providing aid?
You think that only people who believe in god or gods can help other people? Can encourage other people?
Look at the nations in the world that are much more secular and atheistic, they must be filled with despondent people with no moral compass that are in continuous sorrow and are incapable of encouraging each other. In actual fact, the opposite is the case; the less theistic a nation is the better it tends to be in measurable terms such as violent crime, life expectancy, teen pregnancy, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
In such times people look to a higher power to comfort them and help them.
Sure they do, because they were raised to do so from an early age. Just because someone tells someone else something that comforts them doesn't mean that there's any truth to it.
You want to know why some of the new atheist authors write the way they do? Reading your post it is filled with implicit negative judgments and assumptions about atheism that are untrue and unwarranted. Atheism needs some advocacy to overcome that kind of garbage.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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Interesting stuff. I would consider myself to be an atheist. The majority of religions are centred around the fact that planet earth and its humans are really something special. We are just a tiny happening in the universe. It's humbling but true. We evolved into a semi-advanced species. That's great but to attach oneself to a belief system based on our myopic view and perspective of the universe is trash.
Religion has caused so much conflict in the past and still does to this day. Atheists may not care about religion, but may care about the health of whales, the environment etc and have their own set of rationale. It's a good argument that they probably care less about themselves and more about the earth and their surroundings. If religion disappeared people would likely start caring more about the real problems in this world than the master plan that 'thy neighbour' is cooking up.
Don't mean to be confrontational! I'm just stating the facts
Last edited by calumniate; 05-15-2010 at 11:07 AM.
God is perfect, man is not. Religion doesn't cause wars. Wars are caused by people who enter into conflicts over different ideologies. It's the guns-don't-kill-people-people-kill-people argument.
The discussion of what gods are exactly is pretty interesting and transcends a lot of the fluffy stuff regarding God is perfect, man is fallen business.
In my view, gods don't have reason. They don't need it. What defines a god is will, the will to power. Gods do not need to rationalize anything, they simply make it so. Humans are capable of this act as well and in classical and biblical texts you can see humans and gods engaging in this sort of fencing or battling of wills.
Think how many times in the Hebrew Scriptures that man and God engaged in a contest of wills. Think of how many times that humans won.
God is perfect, man is not. Religion doesn't cause wars. Wars are caused by people who enter into conflicts over different ideologies. It's the guns-don't-kill-people-people-kill-people argument.
Much like Photons response above re Communism and atheism, the same can be said for this argument.
Perfection entails the lack of needs or wants. (premise)
Being perfect, God does not now nor ever has nor ever will have any needs or wants. (from 1, 3)
Deliberate creation entails an effort to satisfy some need or want. (premise)
Being a creator, God at one time had some need or want. (from 2, 5)
It is impossible to have some need or want and also to never have any need or want.
Conclusion: God, if it exists, is either not perfect or has not created anything. (from 4, 6)
If God is perfect, then God can’t have any needs or wants; hence, God wouldn’t bother creating something. If God deliberately creates something, it must be because of some need or want — even if it is as simple as curiosity.
Hey, I love being human. I'd even call myself as classical a humanist as possible given the circumstances, but I don't fool myself with the illusion that if we all renounced belief in our own seperate deities we'd all link hands and sing "We Are the World."
Is a deity required for charity, for compassion, for empathy toward the plight of fellow humans? You are conflagrating a lot of typical arguments that dumb atheists have spouted. I think here you are talking about the obviously absurd notion that religion is the source of all wars and conflict. Most intelligent people would agree with you there. Again, that is human nature. Religion is just one framework and ideology by which conflicts and suffering have been justified under. Humans can justify war and violence with practically anything.
But humans are also capable of incredible compassion and creativity and productivity and self-improvement. It's in our genes to build communities, societies, civilizations. Unfortunately, yes, it's also in our genes to wage war and get into conflict with each other. These base instincts are in all people, but are tempered by the people and society around us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
This however is no indictment against atheists just as so called religous wars do not equate to religion being evil. It isn't that simple. The human condition is selfish if it does not have a moral compass.
Look to the aid work that was done in Haiti. What would it have been like if Christian aid charities had not been some of the first helpers on the scene? Not only did they help physically but did so spiritually by giving the people hope.
How could the cold hard message of atheism have lifted those people out of their sorrow and gave them the encouragement to rebuild their nation.
In such times people look to a higher power to comfort them and help them.
Like the Christian missionaries from Idaho who tried to kidnap children from Haiti by forging documents and trying to pretend they were recently orphaned to steal them away from their rightful parents? Where was their moral compass when they decided they had the right to kidnap children?
I have mormon, muslim, and atheist friends who actually went to Haiti to help as well. Crackpot scientologists were there also in addition to many non-religiously affiliated aid groups and organizations. Good intentions are no justification for one group having more right to claim they are more compassionate, having more impact, or divinely inspired than another. Aid and volunteers came from all over the world, from all breadths of religious and non-religious people.
There are many societies and even entire nations on earth today that are mostly agnostic and irreligious. Are those people any less compassionate as people? Do they have no good in them simply because they do not believe in a higher power but rather in the power of themselves to improve their own societies both in times of plenty and times of trial?
I have relatives all over asia, in China, Thailand, Japan, Vietnam, etc. Census studies show buddism as a major religion but I know that for the most part, this is more a ceremonial and cultural-traditional thing than an actual worshipped religion. These societies are more or less atheist or irreligious in the majority. I spent an extended length of time in Europe for school. The entire time, I didn't meet a single young person who was religious. For western europe, a great majority of people adhere to the secular lifestyle today with social liberalism taking the place of traditional religions. A University of Michigan study showed that only 4% of people in Sweden and Finland reported attending Church! Do 96% of their populations have no "moral compass"? Or maybe, is morality just a social construct?
I know personally that religion and prayer can sometimes offer people a seemingly superhuman strength, it can offer encouragement, it can offer hope to some people when there is none. But this is a personal thing for people, this does not work for everyone. Some people just need something to believe in, to trust in. That's what faith is isn't it? Maybe for you it's religion. Other people have their own inner strength, belief in the human capacity to better themselves, or they simply trust rational thought and thinking more than relying on false hope or illusion.
Your post shows more of what I would call the standard atheist or moderate atheist position. The live and let live type atheism which was that of people like Bertrand Russel.
The new atheism of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris etc is the New atheism and is evangelical in it's approach. They feel that religion is an evil influence on the world and must be stopped. They must gain adherents in their crusade and as such this message has become increasingly strident and divisive.
I have read on blogs and boards where atheists debate the difference in old school atheism and the in your face aggresive form of new atheism. For me a true atheist shouldn't be bothered what other people believe as they have made up their minds. The problem is that their only form of expression is to debate theists to reinforce their beliefs.
As for atheism being a harmless belief what about Communism? It was/is atheistic to it's roots and even banned religion in some states in what was supposed to be a matrialistic paradise. Their wars were as much about being anti religous as they were political. What about the French Revolution and the reign of terror where priests were rounded up and sent to the gullotine?Churches were used to stable horses and religion was banned. What about Pol Pot? Stalin, Mao? Hitler also sanitized religion to make it a state religion which was Nazism. Any opponents were sent to concentration camps. Many Christians were killed because of their opposition to Hitler and his faux religion. The USSR did the same thing with the Orthodoz church in order to appear to the world that they were liberal in their views but they were anything but.
This however is no indictment against atheists just as so called religous wars do not equate to religion being evil. It isn't that simple. The human condition is selfish if it does not have a moral compass.
Look to the aid work that was done in Haiti. What would it have been like if Christian aid charities had not been some of the first helpers on the scene? Not only did they help physically but did so spiritually by giving the people hope.
How could the cold hard message of atheism have lifted those people out of their sorrow and gave them the encouragement to rebuild their nation.
In such times people look to a higher power to comfort them and help them.
The French Revolution would never have happened had the Roman Catholics not starved the poor with a food tax.at the time they owned 80% of the land in France, they leased out the lands for farming and then during the worst economic depression the country ever seen they put a tax levy the foods, people were starving in the name of the Vatican.
Hitler killed anyone that wouldn't follow, Jews he hated but he himself was a baptized Catholic. Hitler frequently referred to God and Christianity in his various speeches and writings.
Quote:
Hitler - 1933:
"To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German Volk."
"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.
And the Vatican fully supported the holocaust of the Jews at Jasenovac which saw 100,000 people killed in the most inhuman ways. yes even worst that of Auschwitz, Belsen..etc.
That is an old chestnut T@T. Under further investigatiuon for any poster who actually wants to know the truth Hitler founded a state church and only those who adopted the Aryan belief were legitimite. That involved dressing up as priests etc but was an empty vessel without value. Just because a camel can behave like a horse and carry people like a horse does not qualify it to be a horse. Why then did Hitler persecute Evangelical Christians and why were they so prominent in the underground and assasination attempts against Hitler if he was such a good little Christian?
This old red herring appears with these videos in standard atheist web sites and this particular disinformation has been paraded around for years. This one won't stick fella. That dog just won't bark. It's got fleas.
Last edited by Smelly Fred; 05-15-2010 at 03:49 PM.
People just need to stop conflating religion with large political movements in history as black & white. It has never been that simple and anyone who uses them in their argument is usually doing themselves a disservice or making themselves look foolish unless they are very well informed in what they are doing.
Religion was not the cause of the French Revolution. The persecution of the clergy during the Reign of Terror was not due to religion itself but rather it's oppressive role in the ancien regime and massive ownership of wealth & power. Religion had very little to do with Nazi Germany. Religion had very little to do with Communism. The motivating factors for all of these were economic. It benefits neither side of the religion debate to invoke them in their arguements unless you are very discrete and accurate in your claims.
Please stop talking about Hitler. One just will just claim Hitler was Christian while the other side will inevitably claim that that they were atheist and use it as an attack of Darwinism or something based on Nazi theories on genetics. You guys are ruining a great thread. All atheists attacking religion on the basis that it caused all wars should stop. All theists who attack atheists on the basis that atheism causes wars and genocide should just stop. These are the ad hoc, innacurate, blindly selective, and stupid arguments that things always seem to devolve to with some people.
The real issue to all of this is not the faith of a dictator who obviously used religion in his rhetoric to his advantage but rather the people who believed in him. Therein lies the danger of religion when so many people from dictators to terrorists to politicians to corrupt televangelists, etc. use religion as a justification for the means to their ends and those who follow them blindly because of their words without having an iota of independant thought or an adequate grasp of the precepts of their own faith.
Some quotations by Der Fuher regarding Christianity
11th-12th July, 1941:
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."
10th October, 1941,
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. "
14th October, 1941
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."
21st October, 1941
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, s? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. "
These quotations were from a book Hitlers Secret Conversations published by Farrar, Straus and Young, 1953. It was also published by the Oxford University Press as Hitler's Table Talk. 1941 - 1944.
I can quote books on here can I not or is that disallowed also?
Do you think Doctors Without Borders is like the Christian charities, preaching atheism to the victims while providing aid?
QUOTE]
Excuse me but DWB is a neutral organisation and does not advocate any philosophical, religous, political or otherwise worldview. They would not be classified as atheist just as they would not be described as theist. Neutral is just that and that gets them into locales where others may not practice. I would quote their preamble on their site describing their principles but my post would be wiped by administration.
I'm afraid you can't calim them as batting for your team buddy because that pidgeon is grounded. It's wings have been clipped. It is sitting on it's nest awaiting flight orders.
In actual fact, the opposite is the case; the less theistic a nation is the better it tends to be in measurable terms such as violent crime, life expectancy, teen pregnancy, etc.
