The Prince of Pot Extradited

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I guess I remain unconvinced as to why organized crime would still be involved. Are they involved in the production and distribution of alcohol in a major way? I'd wager 99% of alcohol in Canada is purchased legally, and taxed. I see no reason for marijuana, once legalized, to remain controlled by organized crime. I also don't see how it would be any more available to minors than it already is. I guarentee you every single Junior High in Calgary already has a problem with this. Lets legalize, tax, and then use the proceeds to educate the children. Right now as far as I can tell we just stick our heads in the sand and tell kids not to do it... a failed approach.

I guess you and myself would have to agree to disagree.

I'm fine with legalizing it, but in terms of free enterprise how willing is organized crime going to be to give up that revenue stream.

They're either going to find a way to make it more potent, or cheaper then a government taxed version.

We could say that if the government manufactured it or contracted out manufacturing to free enterprise that they could do it cheap.

but organized crime also mass produces this stuff, wouldn't have to worry about packaging and quality control etc, and they would bring it in dirt cheap with lower labor and movement costs from south america for example.

they won't give up on a massive dollar revenue like that just because the government gets into the business.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by peter12

The only thing that turns me off of pot decriminalization is the annoying pot apologists. Aren't there like 38547 million issues that are more important than protecting a bunch of stoners from the criminal justice system?

Sure there are... and you're spending your time in this thread... why? Aren't there like 38547 million issues you could be discussing above this one?

Also, for a guy open minded enough to learn ancient Greek, you sure are fast and loose with negative judgement on people you don't agree with. I don't run around calling you and your ilk 'the sobers', and then lump you all in to some lame, greek-learning category, do I?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I guess you and myself would have to agree to disagree.

I'm fine with legalizing it, but in terms of free enterprise how willing is organized crime going to be to give up that revenue stream.

They're either going to find a way to make it more potent, or cheaper then a government taxed version.

We could say that if the government manufactured it or contracted out manufacturing to free enterprise that they could do it cheap.

but organized crime also mass produces this stuff, wouldn't have to worry about packaging and quality control etc, and they would bring it in dirt cheap with lower labor and movement costs from south america for example.

they won't give up on a massive dollar revenue like that just because the government gets into the business.

Sounds good to me, agree to disagree. Just because organized crime wants to retain the revenue doesn't mean they can.

Look at it this way, during prohibition, organize crime made a fortune. Then alcohol was legalized, and corporations took over the entire industry. Now I'd wager 99% of alcohol made in the US & Canada is 'legal'... there's nothing organize crime can do but hi-jack a few trucks and re-sell it... not exactly as lucrative as owning the industry.

As long as things like drugs are illegal, organized crime will make a fortune and be very successful, no two ways about it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Sounds good to me, agree to disagree. Just because organized crime wants to retain the revenue doesn't mean they can.

Look at it this way, during prohibition, organize crime made a fortune. Then alcohol was legalized, and corporations took over the entire industry. Now I'd wager 99% of alcohol made in the US & Canada is 'legal'... there's nothing organize crime can do but hi-jack a few trucks and re-sell it... not exactly as lucrative as owning the industry.

As long as things like drugs are illegal, organized crime will make a fortune and be very successful, no two ways about it.

Funnily enough though after prohibition the mob didn't just quit, they found other areas to exploit, like drugs.

Legalize pot and you can expect a greater push to sell Meth, coke, smack etc.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Funnily enough though after prohibition the mob didn't just quit, they found other areas to exploit, like drugs.

Legalize pot and you can expect a greater push to sell Meth, coke, smack etc.

But then there is a line between a harmless substance and ones that are proven extremely hazardous. Between education and parenting I wouldn't be inclined to worry about it.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Funnily enough though after prohibition the mob didn't just quit, they found other areas to exploit, like drugs.

Legalize pot and you can expect a greater push to sell Meth, coke, smack etc.

Disagree. The only way Meth, Coke, & Heroin trades increase is if demand increases. People don't do drugs because they're illegal, they do them because they like to do them. If marijuana was made legal, marijuana users wouldn't turn to harsher drugs for... whatever reason you can imagine, I guess.

Also, your point sort of ignores the fact that organize crime already completely 100% controls those industries, and are already 'pushing' as hard as they possibly can. Tough to see how they could re-double their efforts in this area, it's already completely saturated.

What's an example of a legal industry that's dominated by organized crime? I'd seriously be interested to know.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Disagree. The only way Meth, Coke, & Heroin trades increase is if demand increases. People don't do drugs because they're illegal, they do them because they like to do them. If marijuana was made legal, marijuana users wouldn't turn to harsher drugs for... whatever reason you can imagine, I guess.

Also, your point sort of ignores the fact that organize crime already completely 100% controls those industries, and are already 'pushing' as hard as they possibly can. Tough to see how they could re-double their efforts in this area, it's already completely saturated.

What's an example of a legal industry that's dominated by organized crime? I'd seriously be interested to know.

The New Jersey banking industry.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Funnily enough though after prohibition the mob didn't just quit, they found other areas to exploit, like drugs.

Legalize pot and you can expect a greater push to sell Meth, coke, smack etc.

So then legalize everything.

Now before you make your next argument of "then society would fall into an abyss of hedonism and anarchy", here's some interesting reading comparing a country with very hard drug laws (USA) with one thats very lax (Holland)

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/67

The drug war only serves to make criminals rich and give politicians talking points, that's why it's virtually impossible to end, it benefits some of the most influential people in our society.

As for the pot king, he was doing something he'd likely get in trouble for, he did it anyways. Whats left to say about that?

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

What's an example of a legal industry that's dominated by organized crime? I'd seriously be interested to know.

Movies and TV shows would like me to say waste management industries are dominated by organzied crime

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The New Jersey banking industry.

Seriously? Got any sources or material I can take a look at?

Keeping in mind I asked what industries are 'dominated' by organized crime. Just because they might scam a few financial rackets here and there is a far cry from dominating a financial industry in any state. I have my doubts at the moment.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Seriously? Got any sources or material I can take a look at?

Keeping in mind I asked what industries are 'dominated' by organized crime. Just because they might scam a few financial rackets here and there is a far cry from dominating a financial industry in any state. I have my doubts at the moment.

I read in a magazine last year, and the name escapes me, but it was one of the financial ones. Sorry. I'll see if I can dig it up tonight.

But the New Jersey crime families have completely infiltrated the banking industry there to the point where they practically run the loans divisions of most of the local banks. They basically approve bogus loan applications because most of the loans officers take a percentage of these loans that the banks never receive a dime of payments for.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I read in a magazine last year, and the name escapes me, but it was one of the financial ones. Sorry. I'll see if I can dig it up tonight.

But the New Jersey crime families have completely infiltrated the banking industry there to the point where they practically run the loans divisions of most of the local banks. They basically approve bogus loan applications because most of the loans officers take a percentage of these loans that the banks never receive a dime of payments for.

Fair enough... not sure how that specifically impacts organized crime's hold on marijuana once it's legalized, and I still have doubts that this problem 'dominates New Jersey banking', but I don't know much about it.

Alcohol was illegal, and dominated by organized crime. Now it's legal, and dominated by Corporations & private brewers. It's tough for me to see why weed would be any different.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Fair enough... not sure how that specifically impacts organized crime's hold on marijuana once it's legalized, and I still have doubts that this problem 'dominates New Jersey banking', but I don't know much about it.

Alcohol was illegal, and dominated by organized crime. Now it's legal, and dominated by Corporations & private brewers. It's tough for me to see why weed would be any different.

True, but the problem being, if you legitimize it and manufacture it here, organized crime is going to source it cheaper and without quality control down south and smuggle it up here.

Thats a little different from prohibition which if I remember liquor was mainly manufactured in the States and Canada, when it ended the mob couldn't compete with the prices available from big business.

I think it would be different in the case of pot.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Seriously? Got any sources or material I can take a look at?

Keeping in mind I asked what industries are 'dominated' by organized crime. Just because they might scam a few financial rackets here and there is a far cry from dominating a financial industry in any state. I have my doubts at the moment.

Ever heard of a little place called 'montreal'.

Construction rackets are big for the mafia, easy to skim money.

[Thor]

I've talked with Marc a few times over the years, he wanted to become a martyr and yes he promotes himself with a vengeance; he's still very passionate about the stupidity of our laws and was willing to put himself on the radar to draw attention to it.

I bet most of the people here who support legalization or softening of our laws on cannabis are the ones calling this guy a scumbag.

Its the syndrome people who use drugs have, they feel just in disobeying a law they don't agree with while calling people who sell them the drugs dirtbags.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Matata

Ever heard of a little place called 'montreal'.

Construction rackets are big for the mafia, easy to skim money.

So why don't they dominate the liquor trade?

[Day Tripper]

I've always maintained that any drug that is safer than alcohol should be legal (since alcohol is probably the most dangerous legal drug). Cannabis, psilocybin, LSD, and MDMA for example should all be legal if alcohol is legal.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

True, but the problem being, if you legitimize it and manufacture it here, organized crime is going to source it cheaper and without quality control down south and smuggle it up here.

Only if they can make money off of it. Think of all the legal agricultural products organized crime doesn't dominate, like tobacco, sugar, tea, coffee, all 'drug' stimulants, all dominated by big corporations. Not sure why they'd own the marijuana industry but are totally absent from the tobacco industry.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Only if they can make money off of it. Think of all the legal agricultural products organized crime doesn't dominate, like tobacco, sugar, tea, coffee, all 'drug' stimulants, all dominated by big corporations. Not sure why they'd own the marijuana industry but are totally absent from the tobacco industry.

Except that organized crime is indirectly involved in the cigarette industy, mostly by stealing them and reselling them cheap. Why wouldn't they think of doing this for dope, steal the trucks and sell it for cheap?

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by peter12

The only thing that turns me off of pot decriminalization is the annoying pot apologists. Aren't there like 38547 million issues that are more important than protecting a bunch of stoners from the criminal justice system?

I personally hate all the rediculous hyperboles of misinformation regarding the medical uses of pot used by some old stoner friends on mine. Seems to me everytime there's a pot legal discussion there's one of them who pipes up and says crazy crap like 'pot prevents cancer.' Sure pot can help some people with cancer by making the pain go away and increasing appitite (Because they are stoned off their ---), but I've never seen evidence to say that a joint a day is the variable that keeps the cancer away. I agree it probably should be legal, but I hate people who think that the average healthy person has something to gain from pot use. The way I see it is that pot can help some people, and also can be recreational for many whithout being any more of a danger to society than substances that are already legal.