an atheist is explicitly saying there is no god, which is the same as a religious person saying there is a god
Atheist and agnostic aren't two ends of the same spectrum. One is a position of belief, the other is a statement of knowledge.
You can be an agnostic atheist, and agnostic theist, a gnostic theist, or a gnostic atheist.
Or in other terms, an atheist that says "I do not believe there is a god" is a weak atheist (which implies they do not know for sure but take the default position of nonexistence based on lack of evidence, and also stand as agnostic), whereas an atheist that says "there is no god" is a strong atheist, making the statement both as a belief and as knowledge.
ETA: Even Richard Dawkins won't state with 100% certainty "there is no god" with respect to a fuzzy undefined deistic type god.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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I did not make a generalization, I said in many churches this happens, which is true. I didn't say in every church.
And I also didn't say you hold a lower class, I said it will negatively affect the social status.
If you are going to disagree with me, disagree with what I actually say.
You make a generalization when you are speaking in majority, you say 'many' but really what proof do you have in that? You insinuated those who are lacking in their givings could be held in lower class? Correct? I don't see the issue.
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Originally Posted by photon
And it's not a matter of pressure or putting aside, it's a matter of right standing with God. If someone is in active and willful disobedience to God then isn't that the job of the pastor to address? If a sheep is straying then isn't it the pastor's job to exhort that sheep back into a right relationship? And isn't it the job of the pastor and the church's leadership to ensure that people who hold those positions of leadership are in right standing with God? Otherwise there's no anointing.
So if a pastor doesn't try to guide his sheep and ensure that the people in leadership aren't actively disobeying God, then the pastor isn't a very good one.
You emphasized that one could be coerced to be in good standing with God then? Good standing with God does not involve a monetary transaction, some might lead you to believe that. Ultimately it's one's faith in Christ that supercedes, not whether you are being a good boy or girl and emptying your pockets to the man in cloth.
A good shepherd is merely the man who can motivate the 'sheep' to be selfless, that can be drawn out in many forms though and not just a monetary transaction.
The atheist viewpoint can be disproven. If a god were to prove him/herself (which should be trivially easy for an all-powerful deity), then that would disprove the atheist side. The fact that he (or she) hasn't is evidence that he/she doesn't exist.
I acknowledge that you can't prove that a god doesn't exist. Just like you can't prove that Santa Claus and the Easter bunny don't exist.
Could I not stay up all night and wait for the fat man and the bunny?
I'm guilty as any of getting vague and large topic on these debates, but really what I decided last year was to focus on specific issues over religion is good or bad.
I care about gay rights, science education, and secularism in governments around the world.
When it comes to actual 1 on 1 debates on these issues, the secularists make the strongest case, and thats a common reason people tend to generalize and avoid specific arguments.
As with this debate, the article is stupid; simple as that.
I really have no idea who you are, what kind of education you have or what your experience with certain faiths or religion in general is, but when you make statements like these you lose respect in your ability to argue against religion intelligently.
Not sure what education has to do with anything but OK I'll bite.
Nothing special,grade 12 with 2 years CC afterwards, brought up and baptised Anglican and confirmed at 12 years old. My mother lived her 73 years to the end a devote christian and never once did i have an arguement with her over it.
At about 14 I decided that a religious god just doesn't make sense and is just imaginary.
Now that that's out of the way I hope to have an intelligent debate over religion and god with you. My only hope is you won't run away with your tail between your legs like everyone else who tried to debate me. My experience when someone of "faith" tries a debate on the subject they close their ears,eyes and even brain very very fast.
You make a generalization when you are speaking in majority, you say 'many' but really what proof do you have in that?
Please show exactly where I am "speaking in majority", whatever that means.
When I say many I mean many. The 8 or 9 churches I've been a member of. The 4-5 churches I've preached to that held similar doctrines. The seminars I've attended that have had attendees from hundreds of different churches of similar beliefs. The tapes and videos and sermons and books I've digested from teachers that were held in high esteem by enough Christians for their books to be sold in Christian books stores, for their TV programs to be watched by millions, for their ministries to be supported by millions of Christians.
I never claimed a majority believe that way, I just said many, and it is many.
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Originally Posted by Finny61
You insinuated those who are lacking in their givings could be held in lower class? Correct? I don't see the issue.
Now you've changed what you say I'm saying, first you say that "you made a generalization that you hold a lower class amongst the church organization if you do not tithe," which I did not say. Now you say I "insinuated those who are lacking in their givings could be held in lower class", which is quite different than your first rephrasing of what I say.
How about just going what what I actually said, that it can impact your social standing. Take lying. Being a habitual liar can harm your social standing. People won't think as highly of you if you lie all the time compared to if you did not lie all the time, all other things being equal. In a similar fashion, if someone thinks you aren't tithing as you should, they may think less of you. They shouldn't, it's none of their business, and usually they don't even know they just hear the gossip, but it still happens. I've seen it happen.
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Originally Posted by Finny61
You emphasized that one could be coerced to be in good standing with God then?
No, I said some people will feel compelled or coerced to tithe, if I want to emphasize something I will, if I want to say something I will, don't put those things in where I didn't.
A pastor that meets with a member of their congregation to discuss their tithing isn't trying to coerce the person into right standing with God, I'm sure they are doing so out of an honest concern for the person and honestly trying to help them. Or most anyway, I'm sure there are some manipulative pastors out there just trying to get more $$, but I would guess they are the exception not the rule.
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Originally Posted by Finny61
Good standing with God does not involve a monetary transaction, some might lead you to believe that.
Good standing with god involves obedience and submission, which takes many forms, submission of finances being one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finny61
Ultimately it's one's faith in Christ that supercedes, not whether you are being a good boy or girl and emptying your pockets to the man in cloth.
If one has real faith then one will obey, disobedience is rebellion and disbelief, relying on one's own strength and knowledge.
Again not every church teaches that or is that strict about it, but many are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finny61
A good shepherd is merely the man who can motivate the 'sheep' to be selfless, that can be drawn out in many forms though and not just a monetary transaction.
Of course, I never said otherwise. Some people are more selfish with their money than others, and require more instruction and exhortation in that area.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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Add to that the factor that in many churches it is basically a requirement to tithe.. not necessarily that you will be kickedout of the church if you do not tithe, but your social status will belower if it is know, the pastor will take you aside and tell you thatyou are disobeying God and that your relationship with God is beingharmed because you aren't giving, that you can't receive the fullness of God's benefits without tithing, and you will even be restrictedfrom being active in the church (i.e. you can't be a musician, sing, teach Sunday school, preach, teach, greet, etc) unless you are tithing.
So people will fell compelled (coerced?) to tithe even if it harms them.
I thought I'd remind you of what you said. In all denominations I have experienced your points have never been relevant. 'Giving' can be in many forms including service for the church itself therefore I don't see where social status lowers or increases. I do however believe that desires to pressure into tithing can exist and it really comes down to the type of leader, its whether that existence is in large numbers or not, we already agree to disagree on that.
It's pointless to debate whether God exists or not. The debate should be on how religion is applicable within society.
Personally, when I see atheist groups taking out ads on the sides of buses (which is their right in a free country), they are no better than the fools who come to my door on Saturday mornings to discuss the Bible.
__________________ “The fact is that censorship always defeats it's own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion.”
We've already established you are not a philosophical type, so I wouldn't expect anything less.
I can read and understanding philosophy like anyone else.
I'm just referring to the point that statistics only demonstrate what the statistician wants to find. Which is just plain false. And there is no way that anecdotes can stand up to statistics in conducting any type of evidence based analysis.
Well considering that most people tend to be religious, that would be expected.
A better question would be what the ratios are within each group.
Plus as has been pointed out, it's not always comparing apples to apples.. most Christians I know give to their church to support their church's expenses which includes staff, building, etc to support the social infrastructure of their group, which I wouldn't consider charitable donations because it doesn't actually go to help anyone other than their own group. Some churches are better than others in actually getting the money the congregation gives out where it can do actual good.
Most non-religious people I know make a contentious effort to select organizations where the largest possible % of the money donated goes towards the actual cause rather than administration.
However our anecdotal experience of "most people I know" is pretty much meaningless.
I would also say that many atheist/agnostic people donate to religious charities, because they like the work they are doing. Humanist organizations are just getting started with this kind of thing (many people are coming out of the closet only recently). Many people considered "religious" in the study, may not be very religious at all.
It's pointless to debate whether God exists or not. The debate should be on how religion is applicable within society.
Personally, when I see atheist groups taking out ads on the sides of buses (which is their right in a free country), they are no better than the fools who come to my door on Saturday mornings to discuss the Bible.
If atheists came to your door carrying copies of The Origin of Species and wanted to tell you the good news of atheism, then you would have a point. Some churches take out ads, and some have big billboards, and the church buildings themselves all are advertising for their way of thinking. That is very different than door-to-door evangelism.
I can't understand why some people get so uptight about seeing the ads that have been on the buses.
Anyway, I'm reminded of this:
__________________ You don't stay up at night wondering if you'll get an Oleg Saprykin.
I thought I'd remind you of what you said. In all denominations I have experienced your points have never been relevant.
Good for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finny61
'Giving' can be in many forms including service for the church itself therefore I don't see where social status lowers or increases.
Of course, most reasonable people would be like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Some churches even make tithing a requirement of membership (some churches membership is different than just attending, members get to participate in governance).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finny61
I do however believe that desires to pressure into tithing can exist and it really comes down to the type of leader, its whether that existence is in large numbers or not, we already agree to disagree on that.
So your disagreement now isn't if it exists, but on how large it is? Well since I didn't claim to give any kind of percentage or anything you can disagree with something I didn't say if you like.
I'm a Christian and have knowledge of lots of denominations and churches within denominations and have yet to see a church that requires tithing, other than some of the cults which exist to get your money and your mind anyway.
Lots of pastors will preach tithing or more giving but none that I've seen will expel you if you don't. I also don't think it will keep you out of heaven.
