Multiculturalism

[Mr.Coffee]

There's been some good comments but also some pretty broad, sweeping ones that simply can't just be implemented based on our current system of government and policy generation. For example, how on earth would we just be able to "cut immigration"? How on earth could you just disregard another country's rejection for a criminal when your deporting an immigrant back to their country of origin? The international community would have a field day with that one because as time goes on our world becomes increasingly globalized and Canada also needs other countries too sometimes. If Canada didn't let anyone immigrate I'm pretty sure there'd be some retaliation, no? Not to mention the insane damage to our reputation as a nation.

Maybe I don't think this is as big an issue as some are making it out to be. People talk about honour killings, but is this actually happening (serious question)? If it is, I'm pretty sure murder laws here trump however much some guy wants to honour kill another human. Somebody hit the nail on the head that the real solution is universal understanding and acceptance across ALL communities to bridge the differences, but by our very human nature, this will never happen. There will always be good people, bad people, sick people, happy people, ignorant people, smart people... there will always be different people who believe different things. One of those things- is whether or not to live harmoniously. People are inherently driven towards increasing their power and status... that's what capitalist societies require, so you're always going to have this problem. And actually, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to be honest... because our society works pretty good, doesn't it?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

What I typically get from the anti-multiculturalists is that they are okay with some immigration, so long as the immigrants speak perfect English (or French in Quebec), go to a Christian church (or no church), eat burgers and fries, watch Hockey Night in Canada religiously... In other words, so long as they abandon their own culture, they are welcome here.

You'd be surprised it's much easier to immigrate (and not just to Canada) if you are illiterate, Canada-hating extremist or a thug than white burger eating coke drinking hockey watching white christian.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Pinner

Maybe they shouldn't have left their old country if our country is so unacceptable to them...

No kidding. It always floors me when immigrants want to change the society of their new country into society they just left... You left your country for a reason, because those cultural traits we're supposed to love and embrace made your home country a s***hole you couldn't wait to get out of.

[Mr.Coffee]

Can extremism ever be eliminated?

Here? Elsewhere?

Can tolerance ever be universal? Here? Elsewhere?

Extremism, tolerance... these are ideologies you can't fight based on the fact that they're ideologies. You can contain / control them somewhat, but you can never eliminate them. It's just like how fighting "terrorism" is a false concept. It's like fighting a war against "murder". Yeah, that's realistic. These are all things that have been around since humans have lived in societies. War, power, hate, love, the pursuit of peace, these are human concepts that will always just... be. Because that's the way we are.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Pinner

There is nothing we can change anyhow...

Any change would have to come from within the immigrant community.

When my German in laws moved to Calgary they made great efforts to learn english and would never speak German outside their home.

Oma/Opa damn near broke their tongues speaking English, but they felt it was necessary.

My FIL. lived in the same neighborhood for 40yrs, Forest Lawn was a separate town from Calgary, lots of farms, mostly an Anglo Saxon population,quite different now...

He had to move away because he was disgusted by the immigrants, not because he's a bigot, but because he was intolerant of their disrespect for their new country, people move to Canada and make no attempt to learn english or accept our culture,values and laws. Maybe they shouldn't have left their old country if our country is so unacceptable to them...

I find it funny that you think you are can pass judgement on how much effort someone is taking to fit in here.

The immigrants that "disrespect their new country" are pretty few and far between. Most immigrants appreciate the fact that they come here, work hard to adapt to a culture that is alien to them, do jobs that you don't want to do, and work hard as hell to give their children a life full of opportunity. Most immigrants from other parts of the world are no different than "your German in laws". Do you think the cab driver from India is trying not to learn english? Or that cashier from Ethiopia isn't taking night school for a better future?

If people are breaking laws they should be punished. It has nothing to do with immigration.

Blaming societal problems on immigration is a cop out and is usually fueled by personal bitterness. The people that do it usually have an unjustified sense of entitlement.

[Bill Bumface]

By far the overwhelming majority of people born in Canada to immigrant parents fit in just fine at work on sports teams and in social situations with 6th generation whities and vice versa, so I'd say the system works, just some people slip through the cracks.

The number one reason I'm proud to be Canadian is our acceptance of minorities. I've never been anywhere in the world with less racism.

[blankall]

Saying you need to do away with multiculturalism to do away with extremism is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

You can still have multiculturalism without having lawlessness. The laws need to be enforced better and there needs to be clear cut rules about what is and what is not acceptable.

Political correctness is a much bigger contributing factor to extremism than multiculturalism at this point.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by DionPlett

I think in Canada we need to focus more on our domestic policies. We're always talking about immigration but what is the government actually doing to encourage people to have more kids and giving people tax breaks, or just lowering taxes in general. We should cut immigration for a few years and just get our Canadian people involved and aware of what is going on in this country.

People in Canada are going to have as many or as few children as they want, and no amount of government "encouragement" is going to change that.

"Cutting" immigration for a few years would just exacerbate a growing problem (not enough people to do the work) and wouldn't increase how many kids we have.

[HOZ]

Again I will repeat what I typed in the first post so hopefully this thread will get back on track.

Multiculturalism does NOT equal immigration. Never has. Immigration did not begin with multiculturalism.

What it's goal is, is the acceptance and understanding (i.e tolerance) of differences. A very lofty goal.

What is really has turned out to be is the promotion of differences over commonalities that would bind us together as a people. That has lead to cultural ghettos(physical and mental) and the tolerance of the intolerable in the guise of understanding. Multiculturalism has provided a shield for extremists and has given birth to a political correctness which has whittled away our freedom of speech. In so much, as we have the "hurt feelings" gestapo call the CHRC.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Again I will repeat what I typed in the first post so hopefully this thread will get back on track.

Multiculturalism does NOT equal immigration. Never has. Immigration did not begin with multiculturalism.

What it's goal is, is the acceptance and understanding (i.e tolerance) of differences. A very lofty goal.

What is really has turned out to be is the promotion of differences over commonalities that would bind us together as a people. That has lead to cultural ghettos(physical and mental) and the tolerance of the intolerable in the guise of understanding. Multiculturalism has provided a shield for extremists and has given birth to a political correctness which has whittled away our freedom of speech. In so much, as we have the "hurt feelings" gestapo call the CHRC.

While I understand where you are coming from, and for the most part agree, I have to say I'm not sure that I want my government that concerned about what it's citizens are thinking about, to the point that they feel they should change that citizens thoughts. If we are talking about people committing crimes that's one thing. Political correctness is bad enough. The government should be less concerned with promoting any kind of thought, and should spend more time listening.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by HOZ

What is really has turned out to be is the promotion of differences over commonalities that would bind us together as a people.

I think our difference would be in what we would want in our "commonalities". What do you want to be common? As far as I'm concerned, it is respect for the law and a desire to contribute to society and... well, that's about it.

For others, it's that they want a common language, common religion, common values, common lifestyle, common interests....

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I think our difference would be in what we would want in our "commonalities". What do you want to be common? As far as I'm concerned, it is respect for the law and a desire to contribute to society and... well, that's about it.

For others, it's that they want a common language, common religion, common values, common lifestyle, common interests....

Seems a bit thin unless contributing to society is a general term for lots of others.

Communities/societies are people who work together for a common goal. Take a hockey team for a simplistic example. Each member has varying similarities and differences to varying degrees to every other team member. On the ice everyone is doing a completely different thing yet they have the same goal in mind and work together to attain that goal. Each member must sacrifice some individuality so that the team becomes stronger and ore effective. A team that works separately is a weak, ineffective team.

Multiculturalism works to make a weak team. Keep everyone separate. Don't sacrifice anything to be part of Canada. You are Tamil....stay fully Tamil even 3 generations on. Just call yourself Tamil-Canadian. That is truly a PC diminution of Canada.

The worst thing is that extremists can come here with their old grievances and narrow-mindedness and hide behind multiculturalism to continue on as before. Now to many here that may mean very few people. But to the Sikh, Tamil and Mulsim community that has become a huge problem. Enough so that a prominent Sikh has criticized Multiculturalism for pandering to radicals.

[Devils'Advocate]

You still haven't told me what exactly it is that you want them to sacrifice. What parts of their culture do you want them to give up? Their religion? Cultural beliefs? How exactly do you want them to assimilate?

I think hockey is a bad example since it is a game of physical strength and strategic systems which require people to all be in lock-step and someone going out and doing their own thing is frowned upon. For a society to be enriched and to grow you NEED differences, people should be exposed to new beliefs and ideologies and new ways of thinking about things and experiencing the different cultures of the world. I don't think we should be giving up our differences, but rather celebrating them.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

You still haven't told me what exactly it is that you want them to sacrifice. What parts of their culture do you want them to give up? Their religion? Cultural beliefs? How exactly do you want them to assimilate?

I think hockey is a bad example since it is a game of physical strength and strategic systems which require people to all be in lock-step and someone going out and doing their own thing is frowned upon. For a society to be enriched and to grow you NEED differences, people should be exposed to new beliefs and ideologies and new ways of thinking about things and experiencing the different cultures of the world. I don't think we should be giving up our differences, but rather celebrating them.

Hockey was a simplistic example. Though you do need differences to be successful. Not every can be a sniper.

That said the bold part is exactly right. And the part that I want people who arrive in Canada to sacrifice is the belief that they can avoid that and view that as unnecessary. Multiculturalism protects those people who do not want to "do this" from doing it. They are encouraged to keep on being different/separate/uninfluenced by others.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by DionPlett

I think in Canada we need to focus more on our domestic policies. We're always talking about immigration but what is the government actually doing to encourage people to have more kids and giving people tax breaks, or just lowering taxes in general. We should cut immigration for a few years and just get our Canadian people involved and aware of what is going on in this country.
Canada and US birthrates are so low now that we're just able to sustain our own populations. This needs to change, I think.

Does a year Maternity leave count?

[transplant99]

For a society to be enriched and to grow you NEED differences, people should be exposed to new beliefs and ideologies and new ways of thinking about things and experiencing the different cultures of the world.

Agreed...and that would include the immigrants being exposed to the Canadian way as well and them changing THEIR thinking while entering another culture.

[Matata]

I can't see this being the kind of thing that will tear our country apart, it only takes one generation to realize that hockey, money, big screen TV's, open mindedness, religious indifference and poutine are the things that make a country great. That's why they showed up in the first place, right?

[DionPlett]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Does a year Maternity leave count?

That's like EI though right, anybody can quit their job and get that. Why can't we do for the rest of Canada like they do in Quebec. It's all our tax money anyway.

"Generous parental leave, affordable child care, tax incentives for child-bearing, and employment premiums for working parents.

http://www.thestar.com/article/681030

I agree with a couple of the previous posters about political correctness, you can't say anything anymore about anything without being labelled a racist or something. Maybe the answer is a new national, Pro-Canada party.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Communities/societies are people who work together for a common goal.

No, not true at all. I do not know what my particular part is in any specific common goal, and neither should I. In fact, our boys died to defend our right to NOT have a common goal. Communists and Nazi's have common goals. We instead have the invisible hand of the market.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by DionPlett

That's like EI though right, anybody can quit their job and get that. Why can't we do for the rest of Canada like they do in Quebec. It's all our tax money anyway.

"Generous parental leave, affordable child care, tax incentives for child-bearing, and employment premiums for working parents.

http://www.thestar.com/article/681030

I agree with a couple of the previous posters about political correctness, you can't say anything anymore about anything without being labelled a racist or something. Maybe the answer is a new national, Pro-Canada party.

No it is not like EI in that the company has to have a position for you when you come back and that it is 12 months not 9 and it can be split by the spouses.