Multiculturalism

[HOZ]

We will see if this thread can get past page 1 with civility.

Salim Mansur has a though provoking article: Multiculturalism Fails Canada

I know many believe Multiculturalism equals immigration but in fact multiculturalism was a modern ideology that has forced upon us political correctness. Where we have allowed people to bring their small mindedness and keep it under the shield of "tolerance".

He talks about Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal MP for Vancouver South who has confronted, not for the first time, Sikh extremism and how they hide behind multiculturalism to further their extremism and then goes on to discuss how multiculturalism diminishes Canada.
Immigration made Canada multi-ethnic. The success of modern, liberal democratic and multi-ethnic Canada rests upon the indispensable strength, culture and history of the founding peoples — English and French, Protestants and Catholics — and the institutions they built that would take in immigrants from around the world.
Diminishes history
Multiculturalism is a diminution of Canada’s founding history. It diminishes the vitality and largeness of the political culture that has accommodated a multitude of ethnicities within its borders, while it fails in bringing to immigrants — especially of non-European origin — a compensating increase in appreciation for those values that went into building Canada as a model of civility

He talks of Sikhs and Muslims but Irish, Tamils, and others could also be substituted.

Comments?

[Savvy27]

It's an interesting topic for sure. The position that immigrants should be able to import their own laws or even cultural traditions that are irreconcilable with Canadian traditions is untenable in the sense that eventually Canada would become too divided.

Multiculturalism as a concept is a very good idea, but I think that the fact that Canada welcomes a large number of immigrants each year, and has for a long time, has led inevitably to a point where Canadians need to establish certain aspects of Canadian culture as essential, then work toward entrenching those values, institutions, etc.

That is much easier said than done (and rife with its own set of challenges), but as we saw with the attempt to introduce sharia law in Ontario, there seem to be some areas where the majority of Canadians have resisted attempts to accommodate minorities beyond what they think is reasonable.

All that being said, it would be the wrong move to abandon multiculturalism altogether. In my opinion, Canada has benefited greatly from the introduction of some cultural traditions and from the vast majority of individuals who have come to our country. As was mentioned in the article, there are other liberal democracies struggling with the same issues. Canada's multicultural history has prepared Canadians better for these challenges and I think that is reflected in the relatively small number of serious instances that have come about due to the presence of immigrants.

[CaptainCrunch]

I really like Mansur alot.

And I agree that at some point we have to protect some Canadian Values, we have to value Canadian history.

We always have and will always welcome immigration, and allow people to follow those beliefs. But I've always felt that people that come to Canada must respect our law and our history and our values and in some cases our Canadianism needs to supersede the immigration culture.

If you don't like how Canadian Laws work, if you don't like how we live, what we eat, what we value as a society there are lots of other countries that you can go to.

At some point we as a country need to adopt a position between the melting pot of the US, and our current openess. We can still respect a persons right to religious freedoms etc, and certainly protect it, however we can't start installing parallel justice systems, or allow a persons cultural sensibilities to supercede the countries need to function and integrate new arrivals into our society.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

.

a)Multiculturalism as a concept is a very good idea,



b)All that being said, it would be the wrong move to abandon multiculturalism altogether. In my opinion, Canada has benefited greatly from the introduction of some cultural traditions and from the vast majority of individuals who have come to our country. .

Thanks for the level headed reply.

I hi-lighted the parts I want to respond to. This is to everyone not just you Savvy so don't take anything personal.

a) Agree fully. The concept of Multiculturalism was a good one. But the practice has been a bane on our society. No longer can we point out another people's short comings without being called a racist or bigot. (check out what Gordon Brown did to a longtime voter) Unless it is Canada and especially white, English speaking, male Canada. The double standard is a continuing joke.

More importantly, multiculturalism has, as Masur pointed out, emphasized differences that divide us rather that the commonalities that bind us. Do we really need a community centre for each ethic group?

b) Canada would and will benefit from immigration with or multiculturalism. Multiculturalism does not drive immigration. Never had before it was invented and has never since it's introduction. Immigration and multiculturalism are not tied at the hip.

[Street Pharmacist]

I think often we confuse our desire to be tolerant with our requirement to be mindful of protecting our citizens. Should it be OK for money collected by religious groups to be directed to terrorist groups? Easy for us to say our money goes where we choose and that it is a fundemental right. Is it not moreso important to be responsible and protect our citizens and those of the world from terrorism where possible. (Sorry to use terrorism as it seems to be the fad cause for the right to do anything. Just an example here. Many other examples could be found too)

[Savvy27]

a) I disagree with calling multiculturalism a bane on our society. Actually, I think Canadian society is generally very good. Men and women enjoy a wealth of opportunities as well as protection for their personal rights and freedoms that is superior to most countries and reasonably comparable to other top-tier nations.

Obviously there is a tension that comes about with a focus on protecting minority rights and promoting opportunities for minorities (affirmative action, refugee status, first nations and Metis status, etc.) and democracy. Perhaps the pendulum has swung so far in the direction of tolerance that there is no longer a possibility for any contribution of other opinions, and if that is the case, Canada is worse off and a slight change of course would probably be best.

As for the double-standard against white males, I think that is a natural circumstance of a vast power differential. There is something legitimate about speaking truth to power and the way that most people (even many white males) endorse that double-standard might be inconsistent, but it's not surprising. It is similar to the way fat girls are able to criticize or mock skinny girls without people pointing out their intolerance, but skinny girls who do the same to fat girls are seen as jerks. It's an inconsistent rule, but it comes about as a result of the difference in their social position and most people accept that.

Multiculturalism must be considered alongside the Constitutional guarantees that came along with it. People have the right to practice their own traditions, but they are also guaranteed the right to choose not to. So Canadians aren't automatically divided by multiculturalism, even if the Canadian identity itself has been obscured.

As for the community centre thing, I really don't know. I am of Irish stock and I've never been a part of any Irish-Canadian community (if such a thing exists), so I can't really say. I suppose that implies that there isn't a need for the centres, but had I come from a non-English or non-French speaking background, the benefits of such community centres would mean a lot more to me.

You're right about the possible separation of multiculturalism and immigration. My impression is that a country with heavy immigration is better of with a multicultural approach. In limited experience in Japan and the US, I've noticed that differences are more pronounced and concerning to the homegrown population and that it results in more dangerous and significant conflicts between the groups.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

a) . I am of Irish stock and I've never been a part of any Irish-Canadian community (if such a thing exists), so I can't really say. I suppose that implies that there isn't a need for the centres, but had I come from a non-English or non-French speaking background, the benefits of such community centres would mean a lot more to me.

s.

Its called a pub . . . what are you new?

[bcb]

Q. What is the best way to break up an Italian Wedding?

A. Call in a cement truck

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Multiculturalism as a concept is a very good idea, but I think that the fact that Canada welcomes a large number of immigrants each year, and has for a long time, has led inevitably to a point where Canadians need to establish certain aspects of Canadian culture as essential, then work toward entrenching those values, institutions, etc.

And how would you define these "essential aspects"?

Is the founding history of Protestant/Catholicism so worth protecting that we should throw out multiculturalism? That seems to be what the Liberal MP is saying. "Multiculturalism diminishes [that] history".

What I typically get from the anti-multiculturalists is that they are okay with some immigration, so long as the immigrants speak perfect English (or French in Quebec), go to a Christian church (or no church), eat burgers and fries, watch Hockey Night in Canada religiously... In other words, so long as they abandon their own culture, they are welcome here.

I like Star Trek's "we are stronger when we appreciate all of our differences and learn from each other". The issues that arise with the extremism is that that opinion needs to be shared by all sides for it to work. Extremists believe that their beliefs and their culture are the only correct way to live. I think ALL communities need to work on tolerance and acceptance of others values and beliefs.

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

What I typically get from the anti-multiculturalists is that they are okay with some immigration, so long as the immigrants speak perfect English (or French in Quebec), go to a Christian church (or no church), eat burgers and fries, watch Hockey Night in Canada religiously... In other words, so long as they abandon their own culture, they are welcome here.

This is the way it was when I was growing up in small town B.C. but things are much different now. When I visit Abbotsford I can't believe how the population has changed to mostly South Asian/Asian.

Abbotsford now has the highest murder/crime rates in Canada. Call me "old fashioned" but I liked it when immigrants made an attempt to embrace the culture, values and laws of their new country.

Ujjal Dosanjh is receiving death threats from Canadian born Sikh extremists... Something needs to changed when this happens.

[Antithesis]

I think the key word in any of these arguments is "extremists". I don't see the need to bend our nation's philosophies based on the actions of a fringe element of the population. In my career, I have had a lot of exposure to many different cultural groups and have become a better person for it. Maybe my point here is completely counter to the discussion, I don't know ... but I don't see the need for a radical re-design of our immigration policies to deal with fringe groups of any sort.

[CaptainCrunch]

While I'm not saying that immigrants should have to speak perfect English, I do feel that people that immigrate to this country should have good enough language skills to be able to work and communicate and function.

I think that the investigative aspect of immigration has failed, there has to be a better way to prove that people are or aren't immigrating fraudulently, aren't criminals, aren't members of extreme groups.

I feel that we should encourage the strong points of other cultures, while not as a society accepting in any way the other points that aren't compatible with Canadian values, such as honor killings, forced servitude of woman, sharia Law.

I firmly believe in a first strike and your out of this country system, no messing around with sending them to jail, a one appeal route and an instant plane ticket whether their country wants them back or not.

We have to stop favoring immigration over Canadian's when it comes to easier access to welfare and the Canada Pension plans. We need to make sure that there is a support system for any immigrant that comes in. Immigrants should be forced into the public school system as oppossed to them going to specific cultural schools at least for a year or two.

If we have to accept their cultures, they certainly have to accept ours.

Plus every hot immigrant girl with movie star good looks and a cute hollywood foreign accent over the age of 20 must be integrated into Canadian Society dating norms by going out with me . . . on the government tab of course.

[Bunk]

Canada has always been and will always be a country of immigrants and people bring their traditions, culture, food, religion with them. Now there may be some more extreme elements of some cultures that come to Canada (Honour killings being one) that are against our laws, will be punished, and thus will not have the chance to become acceptable in Canadian society. But who is anyone to say that people should be forced to give up any element of their culture within the bounds of our law? I always find there's a latent racism and xenophpia associated with arguments against immigration and multiculturalism - as if because people are bringing traditions from non-white countries they are less valid than the traditions that immigrants were bringing to Canada 50-75 years ago.

Even so, these questions generally only apply to first generation immigrants. The second and third generations basically assimilate into "mainstream" Canadian or North American culture as it is.

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I don't see the need for a radical re-design of our immigration policies to deal with fringe groups of any sort.

There is nothing we can change anyhow...

Any change would have to come from within the immigrant community.

When my German in laws moved to Calgary they made great efforts to learn english and would never speak German outside their home.

Oma/Opa damn near broke their tongues speaking English, but they felt it was necessary.

My FIL. lived in the same neighborhood for 40yrs, Forest Lawn was a separate town from Calgary, lots of farms, mostly an Anglo Saxon population,quite different now...

He had to move away because he was disgusted by the immigrants, not because he's a bigot, but because he was intolerant of their disrespect for their new country, people move to Canada and make no attempt to learn english or accept our culture,values and laws. Maybe they shouldn't have left their old country if our country is so unacceptable to them...

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Even so, these questions generally only apply to first generation immigrants. The second and third generations basically assimilate into "mainstream" Canadian or North American culture as it is.

I used to say this and think this way, but have noticed the more people of the same culture living in the same neighborhood means less need to change, or less desire to change...

[DionPlett]

I think in Canada we need to focus more on our domestic policies. We're always talking about immigration but what is the government actually doing to encourage people to have more kids and giving people tax breaks, or just lowering taxes in general. We should cut immigration for a few years and just get our Canadian people involved and aware of what is going on in this country.
Canada and US birthrates are so low now that we're just able to sustain our own populations. This needs to change, I think.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Pinner

I used to say this and think this way, but have noticed the more people of the same culture living in the same neighborhood means less need to change, or less desire to change...

Perhaps, but I've never known of anyone born in Canada that doesn't speak perfect english, for instance.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by DionPlett

I think in Canada we need to focus more on our domestic policies. We're always talking about immigration but what is the government actually doing to encourage people to have more kids and giving people tax breaks, or just lowering taxes in general. We should cut immigration for a few years and just get our Canadian people involved and aware of what is going on in this country.
Canada and US birthrates are so low now that we're just able to sustain our own populations. This needs to change, I think.

Thing is that it's partly cultural too. The declining birth rates (in fact Canada's is lower than what is needed to maintain population) are indicative of a de-industrializing first world nation. A lot of European countries have declining birthrates as well as select oriental countries (Japan, South Korea, Singapore). People in these countries are coupling later in life, and also having kids later in life (if at all). The trend may be mitigated somewhat by policy (tax breaks, longer maternity/paternity, subsidized daycare), but a lot of it is due to a shift that is associated with economic prosperity in a post industrial, knowledge-based economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...onomic_paradox

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by DionPlett

Canada and US birthrates are so low now that we're just able to sustain our own populations. This needs to change, I think.

We have lost the battle already

Demographics video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Pinner

I used to say this and think this way, but have noticed the more people of the same culture living in the same neighborhood means less need to change, or less desire to change...

I think that for the most part 2nd and 3rd generation Canadians who've come up through the public school systems do just fine here. Also, as people are forced to change jobs (i.e. things like the recession), first generation Canadians who haven't bothered to put in the time or effort to learn about Canadian culture quickly find themselves on the outside looking in. I think the last year was a rude awakening for some people who were used to finding employment, simply by having a pulse.

To your point about living in the same neighborhoods - the unemployment rate in NE Calgary is higher than the rest of the quadrants. Anyone who works retail can tell you that there is no shortage of applications for any business in the NE. You've got to be able to have some sort of employable skills to find a job in the NE - it is a lot harder now than it ever was before, and if you are one of those people who doesn't care much for Canadian culture, you're not going to find work/keep a job.

I think the problem comes in when you've got families (particularly in NE Calgary) where the man is in 100% control of the woman's life. I've had situations where diverse females have had to refuse promotions due to their husband (either family related or the fact that they don't want their woman getting to "smart"). This sort of sh*t needs to be eliminated.