Enough With the MKV Rips, or How Can I Create Another Terrible Thread?

[morgin]

The original public tools for mp4 did not make it easy to use aac audio rips. Mkv also has the perception of being able to handle a broader range of BR audio rip stuff - DTSHD and TrueHD being two examples. I don't know if those are widely included, but I know there was chatter about that.

I think the reality is that when HD ripping was first starting out the open source mkv container had greater support for certain things, so people flocked to it, and then the mp4 specs came up to speed but by then mkv was the de facto standard for scene rips.

I think there is also probably the "cool" factor that still occurs in these scenes where the more obscure and "tech savvy" format is the one that people like to use initially. I think nowadays pretty much every video player can handle any of the scene release formats so its not really an issue.

[Hack&Lube]

It's open source, the specs and libraries are open source and free of charge. Mp4 is technically not even though you may be able to get it and it's tools for free.

MKV has better GUI and muxing tools and is easier to use. The process is less error-prone with less sync issues.

MKV supports more formats. It can do AC3 streams aka Dolby Digital and VobSub DVD subtitles and multiple audio track switching, etc. You can't put 5.1 AC3 into MP4 without transcoding to AAC or some other Mp4 friendly codec first. These features are highly valued for total rips including foreign language and bonus tracks etc. While both formats support embedded text-based subtitle streams, playback of timed-text substreams in an MP4 container cannot be done using a standard filter while still keeping them readable. You may only ever watch one video source with the english audio but to others, this is important for foreign films, anime, etc.

With the above, you come to the real reason and that is that you are obviously watching pirated TV and movies. Therefore, you are relying on scene releases. The scene is not just American, a vast majority is based in the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Russia, etc.

Again, since it's "the scene", this is an underground movement and a lot of cred and secret handshakes, etc. between members is to show off technically proficiency, use of open source software, use of unique formats, etc. Rather than pandering to the masses. If they were interested at all in getting media to you that you could easily use, then everything would be in DIVX or XVID (some groups still release in these easier to use formats) or Mp3s instead of OGM (Ogg Vorbis) and lossless formats.

Your basic problem is that you are looking at the wrong releases. There are several groups that specifically release for Xbox and iphone, etc. in smaller and compatible formats. If what you are looking for isn't available in these formats, you are expected to have the technical proficiency to be able to convert them.

[OilKiller]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

You get the same quality and same file sizes in other containers that are more widely-supported. MKV is nothing more than needless monkeying around.

I'm still trying to figure out why you posted this here if you are going to simply disagree and complain about everyone that questions your original post and thought?

Perhaps a blog to post your thoughts might be better then?

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

MKV supports more formats. It can do AC3 streams aka Dolby Digitall and VobSub DVD subtitles and multiple audio track switching, etc. You can't put 5.1 AC3 into MP4 without transcoding to AAC or some other Mp4 friendly codec first. These features are highly valued for total rips including foreign language and bonus tracks etc. While both formats support embedded text-based subtitle streams, playback of timed-text substreams in an MP4 container cannot be done using a standard filter while still keeping them readable. You may only ever watch one video source with the english audio but to others, this is important for foreign films, anime, etc.

[photon]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

The open source argument is bunk. It costs exactly zero dollars to wrap these files in an mp4 container.

There's a difference between free as in cost and free as in not controlled by anyone. Some people don't want to have someone else to be able to hold a stick (legal or technical) over their head and be able to change or withdraw the terms of usage at a whim.

The whole point of open source isn't so that things are free, it's so that things aren't owned and arbitrarily controlled by 3rd parties.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by OilKiller

I'm still trying to figure out why you posted this here if you are going to simply disagree and complain about everyone that questions your original post and thought?

Perhaps a blog to post your thoughts might be better then?

Dude, I asked for someone to enlighten me on why someone would choose to use mkv over a more widely-supported container. I'm not disagreeing with anyone, I'm just looking for someone who can convince me that mkv is better than other options.

Telling me to buy a different media player or just convert my files isn't going to convince me of anything.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Again, since it's "the scene", this is an underground movement and a lot of cred and secret handshakes, etc. between members is to show off technically proficiency, use of open source software, use of unique formats, etc. Rather than pandering to the masses. If they were interested at all in getting media to you that you could easily use, then everything would be in DIVX or XVID (some groups still release in these easier to use formats) or Mp3s instead of OGM (Ogg Vorbis) and lossless formats.

I'm sorry, but that's bunk.

1) MKV represents some kind of secret handshake to prove I'm worthy of watching downloaded movies? Like it takes a degree in rocket surgery to install VLC media player or something?

2) I wish people would release audio more often in lossless format. People's inability to compress files properly drives me absolutely insane and is the #1 reason I resort to buying my own CDs and ripping them myself. Also, I've already done the OGG thing. It proved pointless to me along time ago.

There is nothing about mkv that can't be accomplished with mp4. This notion of tech-superiority/smugness with regards to content that isn't even theirs to begin with is completely insane.

Edit: The open source part does make sense though.

[OilKiller]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Dude, I asked for someone to enlighten me on why someone would choose to use mkv over a more widely-supported container. I'm not disagreeing with anyone, I'm just looking for someone who can convince me that mkv is better than other options.

Telling me to buy a different media player or just convert my files isn't going to convince me of anything.

Dude?

Ok then...

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by photon

There's a difference between free as in cost and free as in not controlled by anyone. Some people don't want to have someone else to be able to hold a stick (legal or technical) over their head and be able to change or withdraw the terms of usage at a whim.

The whole point of open source isn't so that things are free, it's so that things aren't owned and arbitrarily controlled by 3rd parties.

OK, this point I'll definitely grant. I'm a big proponent of open source because of the same reasons, I just assumed you were talking about the price tag aspect.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by OilKiller

Dude?

Ok then...

Oh... I apologize, I didn't know you're not a guy.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm sorry, but that's bunk.

1) MKV represents some kind of secret handshake to prove I'm worthy of watching downloaded movies? Like it takes a degree in rocket surgery to install VLC media player or something?

2) I wish people would release audio more often in lossless format. People's inability to compress files properly drives me absolutely insane and is the #1 reason I resort to buying my own CDs and ripping them myself. Also, I've already done the OGG thing. It proved pointless to me along time ago.

There is nothing about mkv that can't be accomplished with mp4. This notion of tech-superiority/smugness with regards to content that isn't even theirs to begin with is completely insane.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Dude, I asked for someone to enlighten me on why someone would choose to use mkv over a more widely-supported container. I'm not disagreeing with anyone, I'm just looking for someone who can convince me that mkv is better than other options.

Telling me to buy a different media player or just convert my files isn't going to convince me of anything.

Seems like that is exactly what you're doing.

Someone took the time to explain why people use MKV and you just disagreed with him.

[OilKiller]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Oh... I apologize, I didn't know you're not a guy.

Oh I am a guy, I just found it funny you called me dude, that's all. Didn't know anyone really said dude any longer.

Regardless, I think there have been numerous posts here saying that they have no issue with MKV and a couple that have explained why MKV is something that is useful.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

There is nothing about mkv that can't be accomplished with mp4. This notion of tech-superiority/smugness with regards to content that isn't even theirs to begin with is completely insane.

I'm sick of arguing with you. This is how it is. That's how the scene operates. Tech-superiority and smugness is real. You may think it's insane, but it's how these groups derive their legitimacy, pride, enjoyment in what they do in stealing content, cracking DRM, making releases and beating other groups to the punch etc. Go live in your Apple and Xbox world where everything is sunny and shiny and user friendly with pedestrian formats.


You asked why MKV is used over Mp4. Pretty much everybody in this thread has told you that and yet you still don't believe the answers. If you are so unhappy with the state of things or so ungrateful that people out there are stealing things for you and doing the work for you so that you can watch free content, go and start doing it yourself and release stuff in MP4. I also said there were releases that cater to easy deployment of media, you aren't finding the right releases. A lot of groups release in Xbox/media player friendly formats.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I'm sick of arguing with you. This is how it is. That's how the scene operates. Tech superiority and smugness is real. You may think it's insane, but it's how these groups derive their legitimacy, pride, enjoyment in what they do in stealing content, cracking DRM, making releases and beating other groups to the punch etc. Go live in your Apple and Xbox world where everything is sunny and shiny and user friendly with pedestrian formats.

You're right. We should all be robots. How dare I dream of a world where a person can just start their car without first having to build the engine and install a transmission.

[FanIn80]

Guys... I asked why I should use MKV over an equivalent and more-supported file type.

I didn't ask why people use MKV, nor did I ask what MKV is. I'm sorry if the people who misunderstood the question and merely explained what MKV is or why people use it... or even just suggested I buy or do something else, feel like I'm disagreeing with them.

Perhaps I didn't make my original post clear enough, I don't know. Anyway, thanks for the bit about open source, photon. That's something that I can get behind.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

You're right. We should all be robots. How dare I dream of a world where a person can just start their car without first having to build the engine and install a transmission.

Like it or not, someone has gone to the effort of stealing something for you, doing the work to encode it, and then releasing it en masse via some distribution channel (likely IRC, then usenet, then someone has seeded it).

If you are so unhappy with someone doing the work for you, then do it yourself. It's a free gift and you are knocking the gifthorse in the mouth.

There is something called itunes or xbox marketplace if you want to "start the car without first having to build the engine and install a transmission". Of course you'll have to pay for it.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Guys... I asked why I should use MKV over an equivalent and more-supported file type.

I didn't ask why people use MKV, nor did I ask what MKV is. I'm sorry if the people who misunderstood the question and merely explained what MKV is or why people use it... or even just suggested I buy or do something else, feel like I'm disagreeing with them.

No you didn't, you asked "Why do people insist" not "why must I deal with?" MKV files?

[photon]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

You're right. We should all be robots. How dare I dream of a world where a person can just start their car without first having to build the engine and install a transmission.

But what you are doing is wondering why people actually WANT to build an engine and install a transmission because you don't.

Some people want to do that. For others that don't they can buy / rent the stuff from Xbox live or iTunes or what have you.. the world you dream of already exists.

[Azure]

I know for a fact that there are a lot of .avi and .mp4 files out there to illegally download.

In fact, a forum I visit has over a million members and they primarily post .avi and .mp4 files.

There are a few threads dedicated to .mkv but it is far from the most popular one.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by photon

But what you are doing is wondering why people actually WANT to build an engine and install a transmission because you don't.

Some people want to do that. For others that don't they can buy / rent the stuff from Xbox live or iTunes or what have you.. the world you dream of already exists.

Exactly. I think this is why I always argue with Fanin80 (all in good humor of course). There are different philosphies here. Some people like building an engine and installing a transmission and making something unique and their own. This is the hobby part of it. That someone else gets to enjoy the fruits of their labour is a nice side effect. They could just as well only release things to their friends if they wanted to. This doesn't just apply to movies and music but everything to do with computers and technology and to the Linux/Windows/OSX/Apple/PC/Xbox/PS3 debate as well.

I've never found myself complaining when I encounter a file format I can't use, a file format I can't get to convert, a mod with poor documentation, files I have no idea how to use, fan patches that break everything, etc. It's usually my fault for not understanding how it works or being too lazy to put in a little more work where someone else has already done the bulk of it and I'm grateful for that.

In the end, the error is almost always between chair and keyboard.