Shots fired between North and South Korea

[Nehkara]

South Korea raises warship, finds clues on sinking

South Korea raised the front half of the warship Cheonan.

It appears to have been damaged by an external explosion which is consistent with a torpedo attack.

Sounds as though they will not retaliate though.

SEOUL (Reuters) - South Korea on Saturday raised the front half of a warship that exploded and sank a month ago near a contested sea border with North Korea, finding clues that support growing suspicions Pyongyang attacked the vessel.

The 1,200-tonne corvette Cheonan sank in what military officials said was likely a torpedo attack.

Forty-six South Korean sailors were killed in what could be one of the deadliest strikes by Pyongyang on its rival since the end of the 1950-53 Korean War. The North has denied involvement.

South Korea's president on Friday gave the clearest signal yet Seoul had no plan to launch a revenge attack, calming investors worried that armed conflict would damage the South's rapidly recovering economy.

"The probably catastrophic costs of a war on the peninsula will greatly constrain the U.S. and South Korean options for a military response, which thus remains an unlikely trigger for major military conflict," the global strategy group Control Risks wrote in a research note this week.

[CaptainCrunch]

They're saying that, but I'm willing to bet that any North Korea sub in South Korean waters is going to be prosecuted under wartime conditions until it either sinks or surfaces for "Inspections".

If the North has shown that its allowing its subs to fire on South ships, the South is not going to take any chances.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

They're saying that, but I'm willing to bet that any North Korea sub in South Korean waters is going to be prosecuted under wartime conditions until it either sinks or surfaces for "Inspections".

If the North has shown that its allowing its subs to fire on South ships, the South is not going to take any chances.

I've always kind of been curious on this kind of thing... doesn't a country usually do a formal "declaration of war" on another? If you're sinking subs on the basis of "wartime conditions", is that not declaring war? Is the North sinking a boat not a formal declaration? I don't really get this part of war and the formality of it.

I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more press, yesterday I was out with friends and mentioned this happened and nobody had a clue...and really the only reason I knew was this site. Seems like this is something that could actually escalate since, you know, people literally died from what appears to be an organized attack.

[Shazam]

North and South Korea are still at war. They've never signed a treaty ending it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I've always kind of been curious on this kind of thing... doesn't a country usually do a formal "declaration of war" on another? If you're sinking subs on the basis of "wartime conditions", is that not declaring war? Is the North sinking a boat not a formal declaration? I don't really get this part of war and the formality of it.

I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more press, yesterday I was out with friends and mentioned this happened and nobody had a clue...and really the only reason I knew was this site. Seems like this is something that could actually escalate since, you know, people literally died from what appears to be an organized attack.

Shazam is correct, It was never a declared war in the traditional sense, it was deemed as a police action. In the end a cease fire was declared but a peace treaty was never ratified.

Naval law is a little more convoluted, most ships or fleets merely have to declare a maritime exclusion zone around their vessels which allows them to persecute targets within that declared sphere.

Usually you try to aggressively persecute potential threats within that exclusion zone and drive them out of it. American Aircraft carriers and battlegroups can declare and persecute for several hundred miles around them.

In the case of South Korea, they can set small exclusion zones around their destroyers and frigates and corvettes try to drive any targets to the surface, or if the targets become hostile or aggressive, they can try to kill it.

You don't need a declaration or war to protect a national asset.

[LChoy]

I'm not sure if anyone is really surprised by this

Evidence overwhelmingly proves North Korea fired a torpedo that sank a South Korean warship in March, killing 46 sailors, investigators said Thursday.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak vowed "stern action" for the provocation and called an emergency security meeting for Friday, the presidential Blue House said.

The long-awaited investigation results, which come from a multinational team, said a torpedo caused a massive underwater explosion that tore the Cheonan apart on March 26.

Fragments recovered from the area indicate the torpedo came from communist North Korea, investigators said.

A serial number on a torpedo fragment also was consistent with markings from a North Korean torpedo that South Korea obtained years earlier

Investigators also confirmed that several small North Korean submarines and a mother ship supporting them left a North Korean naval base on the western coast two to three days before the attack and returned to port two to three days after, he said.
All submarines from neighbouring countries were either in or near their respective home bases at the time of the incident

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/0...#ixzz0oTnHtE8T

[SeeBass]

Once again "mainstream" media is missing the how serious this is.

This is a major step towards war on the 38th, again.

[Ducay]

Oh North Korea.....you just don't get it do you?

[CaptainCrunch]

North Korea doesn't have to get it in their mind. They're a delusional state run by a psycho who believe that the lives of their people are irrelevant. But as long as they are tough like John Wayne, the people can eat propaganda and poop out lightning.

[SeeBass]

I could just imagine the North rolling into Seoul looking around and saying to themselves "holy crap, look at all of this technology, food for everybody, the high standard of living)
I wonder if there would be a chance of revolt from the army themselves if they realize they have been lied to, perhaps even mass defection.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

I could just imagine the North rolling into Seoul looking around and saying to themselves "holy crap, look at all of this technology, food for everybody, the high standard of living)
I wonder if there would be a chance of revolt from the army themselves if they realize they have been lied to, perhaps even mass defection.

Or they could just try and take all the cool s$^# because they're right beside it with a tank.

[CaptainCrunch]

When the Russian's invaded Germany in WWII, they basically came in three waves. The first wave were the assault troops, they came in took objectives and moved on. The second wave were there to secure the conquests of the first wave, they basically looted and raped everything. For the most part these second echelon troops were savage and had never really seen much in the way of modern luxuries.

The third wave was lead by the MKVD, they basically shot anyone that was a threat. Then went around shooting roving bands of uncontrollable looters.

I would think it would be the same with the North Korean troops. NK Military dicipline is notoriously harsh, however they also don't care much for the rights of the conquered.

[T@T]

Their getting quite frisky now!

Not sure what they mean by unheard of though.

North Korea reacted to a South Korean anti-submarine exercise early Thursday by saying it would meet "confrontation with confrontation" and war with "all-out war," according to North Korean state-run media.

The news agency referred to South Korean leaders as a "group of traitors" and said they would experience "unheard of disastrous consequences" if they misunderstand North Korea's will.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc...ex.html?hpt=T2

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

I could just imagine the North rolling into Seoul looking around and saying to themselves "holy crap, look at all of this technology, food for everybody, the high standard of living)
I wonder if there would be a chance of revolt from the army themselves if they realize they have been lied to, perhaps even mass defection.

That's exactly what happened in Vietnam. The North came into the South bringing in old beds and broken chairs because of propaganda that the South was getting raped and conquered by the US and was like holy crap, they have tvs here!

You come in from the boonies and see something like this..



in 1966!

of course is would be 100-fold for North Koreans as we all know what Seoul is like today.

[Ozy_Flame]

Not likely. Those soldiers have been brainwashed since they were kids to believe that all Western excess is evil and corrupt. And even if they didn't see things that way, they would likely fear the overarching societal change juxtaposed on their nation's border.

I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but Kim Jong-Il's soldiers would fight to the death. And I doubt they would even get beyond the DMZ.

[PIMking]

Maybe we need to appoint Vern Troyer as the president of South Korea. Kim Jung However you spell it will Battle Vern in the battle of the midgets! I would seriously pay to see that.

[T@T]

Just wondering, now that the north has pretty much said f... you to the south and basically said we'll annihilate you. what happens if the USA parks some carriers off the coast and fits the south with patriots to drop any missles the north might have? anyone think China would have the balls to step in for the north?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by T@T

anyone think China would have the balls to step in for the north?

Not if the US is acting purely defensively in favor of its allies.

[Tyler]

Not a chance China, or even Russia for that matter, intercede on behalf of the NK.

If Kim Jong Il goes ahead with this at all, they're on their own against.. well everyone.

[FlamesAddiction]

I could actually see China annexing parts of North Korea themselves before the U.S. can get it. Even though China has been a moderate supporter of the North, you know that they must be getting a little annoyed that Kim Jong Il is possibly going to bring more American influence to peninsula... although, Kim was recently in China meeting with officials there... not to get into conspiracies.

The one thing that worries me is if Kim attacks Japan which he has threatened in the past.