Many Canadians in their 30s, 40s not saving enough for retirement

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I don't mind the gov't using "the full weight of its power" to collect true debts, like people who live gluttunously then have to go on the dole, or even personally in my own case, the way they came after me for outstanding student loans! I won't get into details, but man, what a nightmare! I'm still fighting for the last four years worth of tax returns!

But like you said, for things like a simple "fine" or "penalty" which is a revenue generator and not actually a deficit run by someone at some point should not be so heavily enforced. Imagine losing a lucrative contract because on the way to the meeting or jobsite you got pulled over for no valid registration and the cop decided to be a dick about it...

I had the cops turn up with a warrant because I had 5 outstanding parking tickets, there's a good use of police time in the most crime and crack ridden city in Canada!

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I had the cops turn up with a warrant because I had 5 outstanding parking tickets, there's a good use of police time in the most crime and crack ridden city in Canada!

Toronto? Although I guess thats more meth...

[afc wimbledon]

East Van, although Surrey probably has more crack these days.

[Traditional_Ale]

I just came home to five (yup...read it..five) squad cars on my street all because the elderly lady next door was apparently smoking a joint on her front porch. She's like 80 years old!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

or even personally in my own case, the way they came after me for outstanding student loans! I won't get into details, but man, what a nightmare! I'm still fighting for the last four years worth of tax returns!

I see what you did there. Very clever.

"I borrowed money and didn't pay it back and I'm still fighting to get money from the government! In completely unrelated news, I believe people who don't look after their financial obligations should lose the "privilege" of leaving town".

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I see what you did there. Very clever.

"I borrowed money and didn't pay it back and I'm still fighting to get money from the government! In completely unrelated news, I believe people who don't look after their financial obligations should lose the "privilege" of leaving town".

Wow...

I said without going into details.

And given my student loan is nickels and dimes comapred to some of the numbers thrown out in this thread, would you rather me be in the lower income bracket and end up on the Idiot Pension Plan?

Give your head a shake, bro. You're reaching.

I polished my Nobel Prize, by the way. Now its all shiny and awesome.

I heard you were turning yours into a bong. Hows that going?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Wow...

I said without going into details.

And given my student loan is nickels and dimes comapred to some of the numbers thrown out in this thread, would you rather me be in the lower income bracket and end up on the Idiot Pension Plan?

Give your head a shake, bro. You're reaching.

I polished my Nobel Prize, by the way. Now its all shiny and awesome.

I heard you were turning yours into a bong. Hows that going?

You went into detail enough. You said they came after you for outstanding student loans. They don't come after people for loans that are not outstanding. You borrowed money, you weren't paying it back. I've got student loans too. Nobody ever came after me.

I don't care about that or the circumstances, and the reason it was outstanding may be perfectly legitimate, but I'm not sitting here saying we should revoke the passports of people who weren't totally responsible with their finances. That'd be kind of hypocritical of me.

This ongoing "gag" about the Nobel Prize has probably run its course.

[Deegee]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I just don't like the government being able to use the full weight of it's power to collect what is essentially just a debt, and these days tickets are just another revenue grab, no different from taxes.

I almost always agree with you, but frankly if you think that tickets are just a cash grab, then stick it to the man and start obeying the law.

[Azure]

A pension plan should be set up in a way where it doesn't matter how a senior citizen spends his $20,000/year when they turn 65 because they paid into it in such a way that they've earned that right.

I also think there should be a bigger push for private plans. Give people more options.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Good idea. Let's have a pension plan for fools. They're talking about it now. I don't support another pension plan. If you're not smart enough to save, fend for yourself. If you're destitute, there are social programs that can help you. I feel that most people can save if they really wanted to, but they blow it on other things.

Keep in mind your perspective on things. You are obviously good with money and financial planning- that is your calling in life; and you've made a successful career in doing it.

Other people may be good at things you may not be so good at. I know from readin various "help" threads on this board that many people ask for help on things that other may find easy. Doesn't make the person asking for help a fool for not knowing; they simply just do not know.

The reason why the gov't is stepping in here where they wouldn't with a car help or computer help issue is that there are enough people who seem to need the help. Thank goodness I just got myself a job with a great pension plan, or else I would be one of those "fools" looking for CPP to live on in my golden years.

Yes, you could call me lazy or a spendaholic with my money. But the fact of the matter is I need somebody to force me to save for retirement. CPP comes right off my paycheque; as does my pension contribution. My only choice to not pay if to quit my job.

So just because you have things under control; please don't try and belittle others who may not. Obviously I am not alone here; my point here is the basis of the original story; and that story came to light because of something that needs to be addressed.

[Azure]

^^^^yep, and there are a lot more people like you who love to spend and hate to save.

Which is why I think we need a re-emergence in private pension plans. Lets not make the CPP cover everything.

[ken0042]

The only issue with the private plans is what happens to a guy who works 20 different jobs over a 45 year working career? Even if there are a few that use the same system, can you imagine trying to track down a dozen different organizations to get your pension when you retire?

[KTown]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Well aren't you just the cat's meow. You may be good at investing or saving or building wealth through some good decisions, but you are horrible at displaying any humility. Ultimately, people want good advice, but you don't need to jerk yourself off to provide it. And that goes for several other people in this self-appreciating contest thread. It's like sitting around with a bunch of finance grads talking about how sweet their stocks and bonuses are, nobody gives a crap, and you aren't doing yourself a favour by bragging because this is viewed as a negative quality. There's confidence, being classy and knowing you've done well, and then there's being ######y about it.

As for the topic at hand, I believe there are 2 reasons for people being unable to save enough. One is the obvious societal change in perception on debt and how it doesn't matter if your VISA is maxxed and your largely paying interest, and the other is the fact that the buying power of a dollar today has been eroded over the years. What our baby boomer parents could do with their money was generally more... and this helped them be able to save more. And if the government really cares, maybe they should consider policies that influence the little oligopoly of banks we have in this country and allow citizens to ACTUALLY build a savings account. Thanks for the 61 cents of interest Royal Bank, that was awesome.

wow apparently not reading about how some people managed to help themselves through is not good enough for you you have to be quite abnoxious about it as well. You claim to be a better person than me with this post. I find that hard to believe. To me you come off as arrogant.

Apparently I thought I would just share my story with you all since I don't know you personally. I never tell my friends or even my family about my success so far (I am not there yet it could turn for the worst, I am the first to admit that). Personally I am glad I don't know you, you'd be that friend that's never happy for anyone.

[KTown]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I don't buy the parents dollar bought more argument, the real reason that they saved more 50 years ago is they lived simpler lives in small houses and rarely replaced anything unless it was actually broken beyond repair.
The actual things people bought in the past were far more expensive than what we spend now, if you look at old ads appliances and TVs cost about the same in dollar amount as they do now, except in those days a good wage was one 10th we get now.

It used to be ok to have 2 kids in a bedroom, you kept cars, TV's, shoes clothes etc until they were literally threadbare or un fixable.
Holidays tended to be a week camping or visiting relatives.

We don't save these days because we piss money away on Coffee machines, X boxes, Blue ray players, we throw away perfectly good cell phones because we want to be able to browse the web or BBM each other while driving regardless of the fact we already have laptops and computers all over the place.

You spoilt little b*****d's don't now how good you've got it, in my day etc etc etc.

I agree with you here, my cell phone has no case, I've taped the battery on the back so if would stay on. I tend to not replace many things unless they are broken. My wife on the other hand is a different story, this is why we don't share an account. I am planning for our future while she takes care of her need of shopping.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by KTown

I agree with you here, my cell phone has no case, I've taped the battery on the back so if would stay on. I tend to not replace many things unless they are broken. My wife on the other hand is a different story, this is why we don't share an account. I am planning for our future while she takes care of her need of shopping.

Sounds like a real love-connection here.

[KTown]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Sounds like a real love-connection here.

It actually works quite well, she buys, I save. If we both spent we save nothing, if we both save, well we'd be quite the cheap people.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I'll just say it's somewhere between a million and enough to buy the Calgary Flames.

As for this debate on ETFs being a better choice than funds or stocks, I know someone will say I have a vested interest, but I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way. It's not whether I can save 50 basis points, but what will make me better off.

I don't have the time for a full reply right now, but first off you can't buy the performance of the index anyway. If 20% of actively managed funds under perform the index and it costs 50 bps to buy the index, that 20% then likely becomes something like 35%. Take out the dogs from the fund universe and look just at the really good managers and it's way different. I'd argue that if you choose from the elite managers that you'll out perform the index minus the cost of buying the index. I know it, but some people use a very one-sided case for index investing.

Then, if you buy the ETFs without advice, are you going to do the right things when you own the ETFs? Most people screw up and let emotions rule their decisions, harming themselves. I can't tell you the number of times I've persuaded someone to stay the course near a market bottom, when they wanted to sell everything and head for the hills. Market's down 30% and your heart wants to sell, but a year later you held on and are up 20%. How much is that worth?

What is the tax and estate planning we do worth? What about everything else that we do to keep folks on track?

Sorry, but if you want to cut your fees by 50 bps, go ahead. Will you be better off than by dealing with a client-centred advisor like Slava? I highly doubt it.

I can appreciate where this is coming from. However I counter that in defence of ETFs you have to offer up something that proves that the 'star managers' tend to beat the index enough to justify their fees over the long term. Not only that you will have to also prove that the star managers of tomorrow are easily identified today in a way that makes it actionable.

Also your criticism of ETFs seems to be parcelled in with the belief that the person using them would do so inefficiently (Not really an apples vs apples comparison, because mismanagement would crater returns in any case). Should someone understand proper asset allocation and use ETFs in conjuntion with stocks, bonds, et al to build and rebalance their portfolio according to their needs and risk tolerance over time, then it should just come down to an analysis of returns between fund products and ETFs.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Live a gluttunous lifestyle and then go on the dole, no air travel on gov't money.

Can we also prevent smokers and drinkers from using the healthcare system? How about fat people and using transportation vehicles/multiple seats therein? (Can you imagine how much less CO2 emissions there would be if there weren't so many fat people? Hello fat . . . er carbon tax!)



Not that I'm serious . . . or joking . . . just thinking out loud . . .

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I don't buy the parents dollar bought more argument, the real reason that they saved more 50 years ago is they lived simpler lives in small houses and rarely replaced anything unless it was actually broken beyond repair.
The actual things people bought in the past were far more expensive than what we spend now, if you look at old ads appliances and TVs cost about the same in dollar amount as they do now, except in those days a good wage was one 10th we get now.

It used to be ok to have 2 kids in a bedroom, you kept cars, TV's, shoes clothes etc until they were literally threadbare or un fixable.
Holidays tended to be a week camping or visiting relatives.

We don't save these days because we piss money away on Coffee machines, X boxes, Blue ray players, we throw away perfectly good cell phones because we want to be able to browse the web or BBM each other while driving regardless of the fact we already have laptops and computers all over the place.

You spoilt little b*****d's don't now how good you've got it, in my day etc etc etc.

I think the above is true of people living in the 1950s and earlier. It doesn't apply to the baby boomers.

Peolpe in the 1950s may not have had as many electronics devises, but both careers and houses were much mroe readily available than they are now.

I think the excess of consumer products has moer to do with those products falling in price than peolpe being more frugal. I suspect that people spent a similar proportion of their income on those things. It just happened that a black and white television cost far more than a widescreen plasma does now.

[1stLand]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think the above is true of people living in the 1950s and earlier. It doesn't apply to the baby boomers.

Peolpe in the 1950s may not have had as many electronics devises, but both careers and houses were much mroe readily available than they are now.

I think the excess of consumer products has moer to do with those products falling in price than peolpe being more frugal. I suspect that people spent a similar proportion of their income on those things. It just happened that a black and white television cost far more than a widescreen plasma does now.

Globalization at work.
Canada and the States barely manufacture anything besides vehicles. Other nations can produce those products cheaper, hence north america can buy those consumer goods cheapers.

Double edged sword though. Manufacturing jobs are a thing of the past. These jobs were the bread and butter of the labour market in the 50s,60s,70s. Kids with no education making more than a living being able to afford more than a house.

It is a competitive global labour market now. Telecommutting technology is only going to make it more competitive, as video conferencing, virtual offices, working from home enables people from other countries to take certain north american 'white collar' jobs.