What can be done? Iran

[GGG]

Shouldn't every country have the same rights? Either all countries should be able to develop nuclear weapons or none should. Its kind of like human rights. Even a criminal has them.

I don't see how the nations with weapons can sit their with a straight face and say that other nations can't join their club. It is purely hypocritical. There is also no way Iran would ever launch because it would evoke a scorched earth response from Israel and if they were out of commision the US.

More and more I want to go isolationist and let the world take care of itself. I don't believe that in the modern world we are going to see large scale territorial wars between equal powers in the near future. Getting involved in the minor schermishes is just a waste of money and lives.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by T@T

Special ops won't be needed. GPS guided bombs will do the trick just fine.

Iran will be a great testing ground for the new F-22 RAPTOR!!

What F-22 Raptor? The program was cancelled.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

Shouldn't every country have the same rights? Either all countries should be able to develop nuclear weapons or none should. Its kind of like human rights. Even a criminal has them.

I don't see how the nations with weapons can sit their with a straight face and say that other nations can't join their club. It is purely hypocritical. There is also no way Iran would ever launch because it would evoke a scorched earth response from Israel and if they were out of commision the US.

More and more I want to go isolationist and let the world take care of itself. I don't believe that in the modern world we are going to see large scale territorial wars between equal powers in the near future. Getting involved in the minor schermishes is just a waste of money and lives.

Iran signed away their rights to nuclear weapons when they joined the NPT. They have been reaping the technological, diplomatic, and trade benefits of that treaty since signing it. They must now pay the consequences for breaking it.

Israel never signed the NPT.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by GGG

Shouldn't every country have the same rights? Either all countries should be able to develop nuclear weapons or none should. Its kind of like human rights. Even a criminal has them.

I don't see how the nations with weapons can sit their with a straight face and say that other nations can't join their club. It is purely hypocritical. There is also no way Iran would ever launch because it would evoke a scorched earth response from Israel and if they were out of commision the US.

More and more I want to go isolationist and let the world take care of itself. I don't believe that in the modern world we are going to see large scale territorial wars between equal powers in the near future. Getting involved in the minor schermishes is just a waste of money and lives.

Just so you know, a scorched earth policy is about destroying everything in one's pass as they pass through or withdraw from a territory. This is most commonly in reference to Iraqi troops burning oilfields as the Allies advanced through in 1991, and the burning of crops in civil wars.

I think what you're referring to total war, which has a far more Clausewitzian strategy behind it.

[Azure]

I honestly don't see how you can practice isolation right now.

Too late for that. Maybe if Saddam would still be in power you could.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

air strikes is an invasion of their airspace.

its acceptable to strategically bomb their nuclear sites? If its that simple, why didnt the Coalition of the willing do that to Iraq?
Oh you mean the Iraq wasn't for their Oil interests?

I think you watch youtube too much, please show me where the coalition has touched the Iraq oil. hell the USA is even buying the fuel from Iraq for it's military (at a low rate of course)
Right or wrong Iraq was invaded out of fear of terrorism and Sadam had to go.

Originally Posted by 1stLand

If Israel feels threatened about Iran's alleged Nuclear ambitions, it should perhaps disarm itself of its own Nuclear arsenal and maybe Iran won't feel so threatened and wont need to acquire its own nukes.

When has Israel ever threatened anyone with a nuke? when has Israel admitted to even possessing them?

Originally Posted by 1stLand

What do you expect from a country that neighbours a nation that was just invaded and occupied by the neo-cons?

There doing just fine suppling the terrorists of Iraq with weapons,bombs and explosives. if it wasn't for Iran the war would probably be over in Iraq by now. Make no mistake, Ahmadinejad loves this war, it helps his cause of hatred of the free world.
You talk of neo-cons like it's a bad thing but lets face facts without the neoconservative philosophy the world would be full of ######ed countrys.

Originally Posted by 1stLand

I hate getting into political debates about countries I could care less about, let alone see my tax paying money go towards wars that have no bearing on my existence as a human being.

So you have no concern that a country that openly supports terrorism, openly says they want to kill every Jew now is close to developing a nuclear bomb and you could care less?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by HOZ

What F-22 Raptor? The program was cancelled.

Kinda incorrect, production was cancelled. The American's currently have 145 in active service.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by HOZ

What F-22 Raptor? The program was cancelled.

Ummm..no!

The new budget halted the production of the F-22 but the plane most certainly exists, the defense department wanted to replace all of the ageing F-15's (about 700 of them) with the F-22, they were turned down because of the brutal cost of these beasts, monies were shifted into F-35 program and the super hornet.

As of right now there are about 140 Raptors in use and more being built, I think the cap is 187 aircraft.

If the reports of the capabilities are even 75% true four of these things could end any thoughts that Iran might have.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

it would be a big mistake to invade Iran.

adopting a policy of isolationism is what Canada and the USA need to adopt going forwards, before we bankrupt our countries further and lead more of our young men into harms way no payoff whatsoever

Who said anything about 'young men'? This isn't trench warfare. It involves either the Americans or the Israelis pressing a button.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by bcb

Who said anything about 'young men'? This isn't trench warfare. It involves either the Americans or the Israelis pressing a button.

I wonder if Israel would get involved in this, well directly anyway. Iran isn't nuclear yet but they do have a solid collection of missiles to lob at Israel.

Ideally, it would be a neutral country (ie. not Israel or the US) who would make the strike. The difficulty would be finding a country with enough interest and political will to make such a strike. Obvious candidates would be the UK and France, but I can't see either doing that right now.

[bcb]

From a domestic point of view, France wouldn't want to attack a Middle Eastern Nation, based on the population demographics in French urban centers.

I doubt Israel will get involved, but it probably would if it felt an imminent threat.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

I wonder if Israel would get involved in this, well directly anyway. Iran isn't nuclear yet but they do have a solid collection of missiles to lob at Israel.

Ideally, it would be a neutral country (ie. not Israel or the US) who would make the strike. The difficulty would be finding a country with enough interest and political will to make such a strike. Obvious candidates would be the UK and France, but I can't see either doing that right now.

While Iran does not have nuclear weapons, your right they do have a large collection of intermediate and long range missiles, and Iran has admittedly used chemical weapons in the past and have disclosed that they can manufacture chemical weapons including blister agents, choking agents and advanced nerve gasses.

The fear in theatre is if Israel does get involved in neutralizing Iran's nuclear capability that Iran will retaliate by hitting civilian targets with these agents.

Also while American troops are heavily trained in chemical warfare, Iran if desperate would certainly use artillery shells containing chemical agents against them. As Iran did against Iraqi troops in the last war between those countries.

[PIMking]

Didn't Israel attack the Persians once before?

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by GGG

Shouldn't every country have the same rights? Either all countries should be able to develop nuclear weapons or none should. Its kind of like human rights. Even a criminal has them.

.

Criminals do not have the same civil rights you do.

The international community through recognized institutions has determined Iran should not have nuclear weapons, basically a determination that this ancient society is too immature to handle the responsibility.

I don't think anyone has said Iran shouldn't have nuclear power. Most solutions to this issue have Iran ending up with nuclear power.

The notion of Iran being invaded has always been ridiculous. It will never happen. From any side.

The USA has a long history of watching enemies arm themselves with nuclear weapons . . . . the Soviets, China, North Korea . . . . without significant preventative action. If there is to be armed action, it will probably start with Israel, the nation with the most to lose.

It's kind of a race to see if Iranian society matures to the point of replacing the religious dictatorship running it versus the danger of nuclear proliferation with the first government that may not care about MAD.

Cowperson

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Criminals do not have the same civil rights you do.

The international community through recognized institutions has determined Iran should not have nuclear weapons, basically a determination that this ancient society is too immature to handle the responsibility.

I don't think anyone has said Iran shouldn't have nuclear power. Most solutions to this issue have Iran ending up with nuclear power.

The notion of Iran being invaded has always been ridiculous. It will never happen. From any side.

The USA has a long history of watching enemies arm themselves with nuclear weapons . . . . the Soviets, China, North Korea . . . . without significant preventative action. If there is to be armed action, it will probably start with Israel, the nation with the most to lose.

It's kind of a race to see if Iranian society matures to the point of replacing the religious dictatorship running it versus the danger of nuclear proliferation with the first government that may not care about MAD.

Cowperson

And it is with this possibility, I think, that we could see a domino effect take hold in the middle east. Once Israel begins a conventional assault on the Iranians, Israel would likely lose their few allies in the region, and Hamas / Hezbollah would almost certainly declare full out war on Israel, with Syria likely following suit. At this point, the IDF would be stretched incredibly thin, the Americans would automatically be sucked into the conflict given their geostrategic location in Iraq, which would then lead to a highly acrimonious relationship with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Egypt, and other countries.

No good can come from a conventional war in the Middle East with Iran. And in some ways, and I will say this biting my tongue, is that a nuclear-armed Iran might provide a balancing-power that would prevent such a pre-emptive strike from the Israelis. The best situation, if Iran continues on the path of uranium enrichment, would be akin to the "mutally-assured destrution" scenario during the Cold War, in which both the US and Soviet Russia knew that all it would take is one detonated nuke that wouldn't be worth it.

If we thought Iran was capable of striking Israel with a nuke with an atomic weapons program, just wait until Israel throws the first punch. The whole region would collapse.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

And it is with this possibility, I think, that we could see a domino effect take hold in the middle east. Once Israel begins a conventional assault on the Iranians, Israel would likely lose their few allies in the region, and Hamas / Hezbollah would almost certainly declare full out war on Israel, with Syria likely following suit. At this point, the IDF would be stretched incredibly thin, the Americans would automatically be sucked into the conflict given their geostrategic location in Iraq, which would then lead to a highly acrimonious relationship with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Egypt, and other countries.

I think a war with Iran might actually strengthen Israel's ties with many Arab countries. The Sunni/e divide and the Persian/Arab divides are a lot stronger than people make them out to be. They aren't played out in the media like the Jewish/Muslim conflict, but like I said before, far more people died in the Iran/Iraq war than all other modern middle eastern conflicts combined.

I think there is a good chance Syria/Hamas/Hezbollah might pile on Israel in a moment of weakness. There is no chance that Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Turkey would ever join in. They have their own interest in seeing Iran fall and they are way too dependent on US money.

A coalition of Hezbollah/Hamas/Syria would be pretty pathetic really. They are all isolated financially and diplomatically and have no modern armaments to speak of. For as much flack as Israel gets for the brutallity of its recent invasion of Gaza and Lebanon, they took a lot of steps to avoid casualties. If Israel was in a more desperate situation they would just take safer (from their perspective) and more efficient means of dealing with them next time. IE bomb the crap out of them.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by blankall

A coalition of Hezbollah/Hamas/Syria would be pretty pathetic really. They are all isolated financially and diplomatically and have no modern armaments to speak of. For as much flack as Israel gets for the brutallity of its recent invasion of Gaza and Lebanon, they took a lot of steps to avoid casualties. If Israel was in a more desperate situation they would just take safer (from their perspective) and more efficient means of dealing with them next time. IE bomb the crap out of them.

A coalition would be extremely effective, actually. Hezbollah has proven that it can cause mass panic through almost-genius use of strategic propaganda and fluid communicaitons during the 2006 Lebanon War. Their rocket attacks into Haifa were only a partial show of their military capabilities, and with Syrian backing, their missile lobs could be a force to be reckoned with.

Additionally, Hamas would probably increase suicide attacks ten-fold; something that will not sit well with the Israeli public and the Western governments. This doesn't even include Islamic Jihad or the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade.

Then there's the problem of al-Qaeda licking their chops at this very situation. Their numbers and strength would surge in the event of another war againg Hamas / Hezbollah, which would most definitely be spun as the Jews being the aggressors and attacking the Islamic faith.

The damaged that can be done by micro-parties and insurgent groups is second to none in terms of how much the media can affect public opinion.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by T@T

Ummm..no!

The new budget halted the production of the F-22 but the plane most certainly exists, the defense department wanted to replace all of the ageing F-15's (about 700 of them) with the F-22, they were turned down because of the brutal cost of these beasts, monies were shifted into F-35 program and the super hornet.

As of right now there are about 140 Raptors in use and more being built, I think the cap is 187 aircraft.

If the reports of the capabilities are even 75% true four of these things could end any thoughts that Iran might have.

I can't wait till they spend another $100 billion starting up the program again when a Republican wins the Whitehouse in '12.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

And it is with this possibility, I think, that we could see a domino effect take hold in the middle east. Once Israel begins a conventional assault on the Iranians, Israel would likely lose their few allies in the region, and Hamas / Hezbollah would almost certainly declare full out war on Israel, with Syria likely following suit. At this point, the IDF would be stretched incredibly thin, the Americans would automatically be sucked into the conflict given their geostrategic location in Iraq, which would then lead to a highly acrimonious relationship with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Egypt, and other countries.

No good can come from a conventional war in the Middle East with Iran. And in some ways, and I will say this biting my tongue, is that a nuclear-armed Iran might provide a balancing-power that would prevent such a pre-emptive strike from the Israelis. The best situation, if Iran continues on the path of uranium enrichment, would be akin to the "mutally-assured destrution" scenario during the Cold War, in which both the US and Soviet Russia knew that all it would take is one detonated nuke that wouldn't be worth it.

If we thought Iran was capable of striking Israel with a nuke with an atomic weapons program, just wait until Israel throws the first punch. The whole region would collapse.

You mean stretched thin like the Israeli army was in '69?

Israel has been playing games with their wars the past few years. God forbid it goes to an all-out war. The whole world is going to be shocked by what Israel does.

Israel has an active policy in place to use nuclear weapons if they feel their existence is threatened. I have no doubt that they will use it if Syria, Turkey, Egypt or any other Middle East countries including Iran are stupid enough to try and start a war with them.

Rest assured, Israel will never let Iran get nuclear weapons.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

A coalition would be extremely effective, actually. Hezbollah has proven that it can cause mass panic through almost-genius use of strategic propaganda and fluid communicaitons during the 2006 Lebanon War. Their rocket attacks into Haifa were only a partial show of their military capabilities, and with Syrian backing, their missile lobs could be a force to be reckoned with.

Additionally, Hamas would probably increase suicide attacks ten-fold; something that will not sit well with the Israeli public and the Western governments. This doesn't even include Islamic Jihad or the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade.

Then there's the problem of al-Qaeda licking their chops at this very situation. Their numbers and strength would surge in the event of another war againg Hamas / Hezbollah, which would most definitely be spun as the Jews being the aggressors and attacking the Islamic faith.

The damaged that can be done by micro-parties and insurgent groups is second to none in terms of how much the media can affect public opinion.

Seriously?

Like I said, Israel has been playing games with Hezbollah and Hamas during the past few conflicts. And they won't give a crap about collateral damage if it comes to that.

Lobbing a few missiles doesn't even compare to laser guided bombs being dropped by a superior airforce. Not too mention a superior army.

We're talking about a military that defeated an attack from Turkey, Egypt and Syria with support from Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria.

One mass attack took our the entire Egyptian air force, and you think Hezbollah and Hamas with their pathetic rockets would stand any kind of chance against a nation that isn't afraid to carpet bomb targets if they have too?