Here they come after our money

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by monkeyman@Sep 18 2005, 09:26 PM
There is no misunderstanding March... the argument is about Alberta distributing it's surplus to the rest of Canada not that we shouldn't pay taxes.
We, for the most part, are all aware that the equalization payments come from the federal government, taken from the taxes we all pay, and that is fair.

Fair enough, although I do get the distinct impression that many people really don't know how equalization works or why it exists.

Who, other than some journalists and political writers, is proposing that Alberta should share its surplus with the other provinces? Surely the federal government isn't making any such proposition. The money garnered by the Alberta government is their's to spend (or invest) as they see fit; I can't even think of any law on the book that would allow the fed to take a provincial government's money and redistribute it.

[Thunderball]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Sep 18 2005, 07:59 PM
Alberta doesn't "send" any money at all, though.

I think there's a great misunderstanding about equalization and transfer payments that is prevalent on these boards and elsewhere. Equalization is when the federal (not provincial) government sends money to the eight have-not provinces. This money comes from federal coffers...Ottawa doesn't take money away from the provincial governments of Ontario and Alberta and then redistribute it. I think many people seem to have that misconception.

When people claim that the citizens Ontario and Alberta are paying for equalization, what they really mean is that the citizens of those provinces pay federal taxes that are then transferred to the provincial governments of other provinces. Taxpayers in the eight have-not provinces pay for equalization too, only that money is then returned (plus more) to their provincial government, whereas the citizens of Ontario and Alberta don't see any direct benefit from federal money that is spent on equalization. But it's not like Paul Martin is banging on Klein's door and demanding that the Alberta government send money to PEI. Revenues generated by the provincial governments of Alberta and Ontario are not taken away and sent to other provinces. If that were to ever change, I'd be right up there with the rest of you complaining about it. But as it stands now, as a Canadian citizen, it doesn't bother me that a portion of the taxes I pay to the federal government are spent on programs like equalization that I will personally not benefit from since it makes the country as a whole a better place to live.

Its maybe a slight misunderstanding, but its really semantics.

Citizens of Alberta (and Ontario) pay federal taxes that supposedly are to pay for their services, protections, etc. Now, the trouble many people have is that the money they pay for their programs, protections, services, etc. are not going to their province, but to another province. Therefore, their money is going from their province to someone else's. Its not money out of the province's pocket, but its money that should be going to the province to pay for its programs that are going to another province instead.

Alberta has 3.5 million people... transfer payments are like losing funding for 10% of the people in the process, because that 10% is going to another part of the country. Yet, people think Albertans should pay more... completely ignoring Federal Excise Tax, Royalties, and GST that the Feds rake in from high oil prices. Thats where the argument comes from, and thats why people say we give enough.

[monkeyman]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Sep 18 2005, 09:18 PM
Fair enough, although I do get the distinct impression that many people really don't know how equalization works or why it exists.

Who, other than some journalists and political writers, is proposing that Alberta should share its surplus with the other provinces? Surely the federal government isn't making any such proposition. The money garnered by the Alberta government is their's to spend (or invest) as they see fit; I can't even think of any law on the book that would allow the fed to take a provincial government's money and redistribute it.

Then we are in agreement, its Alberta’s money to spend it how it sees fit.

The argument seems to have boiled down to whether or not Alberta is greedy in not voluntarily sharing it's surplus. Not if it’s legal, plausible or even being seriously considered other than a few reporters, politicians or whatever…I think the biggest fear as an Alberta citizen is a return to such federal programs as the NEP.

There are some that believe we are all selfish here in Alberta for not redistributing the surplus and others that think we already pay as much in federal taxes or more, as any other Canadian and that's fine.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Why do so many people say just move?
If everyone just moves out of the slow markets to Calgary or Toronto etc. we will end up with little shinguardholes all over the country. A few nice cities, and a ton of poverty stricken ghettos. Is that really a good outcome for Canada?
Isn't it better to try and have quality living across the country?

[monkeyman]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Sep 18 2005, 11:03 PM
Why do so many people say just move?
If everyone just moves out of the slow markets to Calgary or Toronto etc. we will end up with little shinguardholes all over the country. A few nice cities, and a ton of poverty stricken ghettos. Is that really a good outcome for Canada?
Isn't it better to try and have quality living across the country?

People are made to migrate.
What happens to an artificially propped up a part of the country when you can no longer afford to support it? What happens to the people/areas then? Perhaps if you don’t just blindly throw more and more money at these areas they’ll be forced to adapt and grow on their own.
Hey, evolution is based on it, adapt and thrive or die.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Sep 18 2005, 11:03 PM
Why do so many people say just move?
If everyone just moves out of the slow markets to Calgary or Toronto etc. we will end up with little shinguardholes all over the country. A few nice cities, and a ton of poverty stricken ghettos. Is that really a good outcome for Canada?
Isn't it better to try and have quality living across the country?

Well, I am certian that Nova Scotia would love to hear your ideas on what the next big industry will be out there.

If you are trained to do one thing, and you cant find a job to do that thing where you are, then you can either take a different job, sit on welfare/EI, or move to where your job is. As an individual, that is your options.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Sep 19 2005, 12:03 AM
Why do so many people say just move?
If everyone just moves out of the slow markets to Calgary or Toronto etc. we will end up with little shinguardholes all over the country. A few nice cities, and a ton of poverty stricken ghettos. Is that really a good outcome for Canada?
Isn't it better to try and have quality living across the country?

Well, theoretically the more people working in Alberta and Ontario would mean more money being paid into confederation, and more money being sent to the small towns or cities to develop new industries that can sustain their populations.

Theoretically, of course, because I'm not taking into account golf courses, ad campaigns, or other forms of government waste.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Sep 19 2005, 06:46 AM
Well, I am certian that Nova Scotia would love to hear your ideas on what the next big industry will be out there.

If you are trained to do one thing, and you cant find a job to do that thing where you are, then you can either take a different job, sit on welfare/EI, or move to where your job is. As an individual, that is your options.

I don't claim to have the answers. I just know that moving all of the skilled workers into the good markets will result in large areas of unskilled poor people around the country. It may help those few individuals who can find work elsewhere, but this is certainly not the answer to Nova Scotia as a whole.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by monkeyman@Sep 18 2005, 11:53 PM
People are made to migrate.
What happens to an artificially propped up a part of the country when you can no longer afford to support it? What happens to the people/areas then? Perhaps if you don’t just blindly throw more and more money at these areas they’ll be forced to adapt and grow on their own.
Hey, evolution is based on it, adapt and thrive or die.

Thanx Darwin.
That's a wonderful way to think of fellow humans. Deal with your own problems or die.
It take more then desire to adapt and thrive.

[flamingchina]

I think the point is is that throughout history, the reaction by people when times are bad in one place, is to move to another (if possible) this is especially relevent in the last 300 years or so. Why do you think so many people moved to NA? Because they wanted a nice long boat ride?
What this is, is setting up a system that negates a long standing mode of population movement.
and to quote my econ prof, "The market is not in equilibrium."

[monkeyman]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Sep 19 2005, 07:00 PM
Thanx Darwin.
That's a wonderful way to think of fellow humans. Deal with your own problems or die.
It take more then desire to adapt and thrive.

I like to think of myself as an optimist. I believe in my fellow man, I believe that left to his own resource he will not only survive but also find a way to thrive. I’m all for supporting my fellow Canadians but only to a point. You can’t solve all problems by blindly throwing money at it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Sep 19 2005, 06:57 PM
I don't claim to have the answers. I just know that moving all of the skilled workers into the good markets will result in large areas of unskilled poor people around the country. It may help those few individuals who can find work elsewhere, but this is certainly not the answer to Nova Scotia as a whole.

Well, perhaps the federal government should be looking at funding new industries in Nova Scotia rather than looking at new ways of funding itself. Just imagine what that $1 billion thrown away on the gun registry make-work program might have done if invested, not just in the maritimes, but throughout Canada?

At least Nova Scotia and Newfoundland do have their offshore oil now, so that is a start.

Either way, throwing even more of my money out east is not going to fix a damn thing.

[MarchHare]

Well, perhaps the federal government should be looking at funding new industries in Nova Scotia rather than looking at new ways of funding itself.

They do that already. There's even a cabinet-level position in charge of overseeing that (in addition to the Minister of Industry).

http://www.acoa.ca/e/index.shtml

The problem with the Atlantic Provinces, with the possible exception of Halifax, is that it lacks the culture, night life, and excitement of a big city. So naturally all the bright young people are leaving as soon as they graduate. I know the New Brunswick government, for instance, is offering tuition rebates if young NB citizens stay and work in the province after completing their education.

Post-secondary students who live and work in New Brunswick after they finish their education will soon be eligible for a tuition rebate of up to $10,000.

Premier Bernard Lord announced Friday that students enrolled in post-secondary studies as of Jan. 1, 2005, can apply to have 50 per cent of their tuition rebated - to a lifetime maximum of $10,000 - against their provincial income taxes if they choose to live and work in New Brunswick.

http://canadaeast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/articl...BRIEF/304160157