House passes Senate health care bill

[Thor]

I really don't get why the obvious problem in US politics isn't debated instead of what we always resort to, slamming the other party.

Its simple corruption of power by wealth, the powerful who control the 1% of the wealth in America have a massive influence and poison the democratic process to such a degree that nothing substantial can ever get done anymore in the US.

I'm not tower, this is well established fact and yet its tolerated by the electorate because so many of them don't even vote out of disillusionment, apathy or laziness. When elections come around its whomever brings out the most cash to brainwash people to vote for them based on fear or promises they rarely keep anyhow.

Campaign finance reform, lobbying reforms should be the big things to tackle but money always trumps the best interest of the average citizen, the US government becomes more and more like a corporation than a body built for the people by the people.

Its a messy problem, and every country in the free world has this problem in varying degrees, so I'm not suggesting this is some unique American problem.

A well educated, healthy populace that could make informed decisions and not be so easily swayed by massive AD campaigns by special interest like they were in the health care debate by the insurance and other interested parties trying to shut it down or have it watered down and beneficial to them like it ended up being.

The whole system is a mess, and the right thing would have been to tear it apart and start over, but we all know that would have been impossible and the best they could do is come up with a bill that gives up way too much to insurance companies and the pharmaceutical interests while still not dealing with a lot of the problems of better health care and better preventative health care.

I guess its too complex of a problem to deal with, if you have a chance to see Jamie Olivers food revolution on TV check that out, we are killing our kids and our health in letting crap food be fed to our children, that we don't hold accountable the food industry for all the crap they do to make food more profitable at the expense of our health.

Its such a massive issue that it hurts your head thinking about all that needs to change, but what we know for sure is that while all these massive profits are made at the suffering of people then it will not go quietly into the night, and requires a massive revolution in thinking by people to make changes to our lifestyles, to our education, and more importantly to empower people again to force change onto our lawmakers.

[Azure]

I'm the biggest supporter of the free market and the right for people to make millions and be rich, and be greedy, and hoard all their money to themselves, and even I, the evil capitalist, the evil libertarian agrees that the powerful, those with a lot of influence are plotting the course for the US.

There is no more 'American dream.' The land of the 'free'....the land of equal opportunity, it doesn't exist anymore. People, especially Americans LOVE to call Canada socialist. We're the commies from up north. And yet, we Albertans know that living here, in beautiful Alberta, we enjoy many, if not MORE of the benefits, qualities and other 'freedoms' that the US always HAD, and could STILL have.

I don't know how it came up, but I was talking to a couple friends from the US and we got to talking about groceries, and how they are exempt from GST, and I assume PST here in Canada.

They were astonished. Their respective states TAX groceries. How screwed up is that? A basic necessity of life, something families STRUGGLE to pay for each day, and you want to TAX it? Are you freakin' kidding me?

You look at that, and the fact that the middle class is going to be hit the hardest, while the rich and powerful just add a few more 'cents' to the pot, and the result? An even more screwed up system.

Considering that the 'mandated insurance' won't be enforced on an individual level(someone please refute that if you can)....I'm convinced of two things. Obama, Pelosi and Reid are the biggest morons in the history of the United States, or they're the smartest big government operators to ever live. There is only one outcome to a system that doesn't force people to have insurance, but DOES force insurance companies to give insurance to people REGARDLESS of pre-existing condition. Bankruptcy.

That makes it all so baffling. The US in my mind is turning into a corporatist-fascist country. The rich and powerful with extreme influence, and the government with the string pulling behind the scene.

And I'm no Tower either.

I also agree with Thor. Especially on the food issue. But that is a whole other thread.

[Vulcan]

The people know there is something basically wrong in the USA but once again this modern Tea Party is being led around by it's nose.

And so today, once more, wealthy corporate interests are winding up an angry populace – amid an economic slump – with spurious talk of freedom. Having enjoyed the benefits of their own empire for the last 50 years and pocketed tax cuts during the Iraq war, the 21st-century Tea Party movement is now grumbling about paying for power.

Of course, there are some differences. Today the Tea Party is a suburban, rather than urban, phenomenon; its Fox News philosophers lack something of the depth of Hancock, Adams and Benjamin Franklin. But the parallels are noteworthy: in its use of marches and street theatre it echoes the tarring-and-feathering mob politics that once governed Boston harbour. So, too, its impressive use of new media. The pamphlets and cartoons of 18th-century New England are now replaced by blogs, cable television and internet radio. Also its religiosity: out of the Boston tea party emerged a "solemn league and covenant", drawing on America's Protestant pre-history and committing its members to collective action against the British. In vogue among modern Tea Party members is the line from the Declaration of Independence: "We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

The Tea Party: lofty ideals, grubby facts
Boston's was brewed up by wealthy merchants. Now corporate interests wind up the people with spurious talk of freedom.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by OilersBaby

i havent gone through the pages and pages of this thread but living in the USA, I have my opinion. As an educated, married person, this SUCKS. Why should I have to pay for everyone else's healthcare? Its mine and my husbands tax dollars that will have to support people who dont have the motivation or desire to work.

Sorry to be selfish, but if I wanted universal healthcare, I would have stayed in Canada. Here, the more you work and the more you make, the more you pay tax to support those who dont. Whats the point of working our butts off? I might as well just make an average household income and let the wealthy take care of me. By the way, Im not rich. I live in California and the amount we make is defined as rich by a national standard but by crazy california standards, we can barely pay our mortgage.

Thats my rant.

nm

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm the biggest supporter of the free market and the right for people to make millions and be rich, and be greedy, and hoard all their money to themselves, and even I, the evil capitalist, the evil libertarian agrees that the powerful, those with a lot of influence are plotting the course for the US.

There is no more 'American dream.' The land of the 'free'....the land of equal opportunity, it doesn't exist anymore. People, especially Americans LOVE to call Canada socialist. We're the commies from up north. And yet, we Albertans know that living here, in beautiful Alberta, we enjoy many, if not MORE of the benefits, qualities and other 'freedoms' that the US always HAD, and could STILL have.

I don't know how it came up, but I was talking to a couple friends from the US and we got to talking about groceries, and how they are exempt from GST, and I assume PST here in Canada.

They were astonished. Their respective states TAX groceries. How screwed up is that? A basic necessity of life, something families STRUGGLE to pay for each day, and you want to TAX it? Are you freakin' kidding me?

You look at that, and the fact that the middle class is going to be hit the hardest, while the rich and powerful just add a few more 'cents' to the pot, and the result? An even more screwed up system.

Considering that the 'mandated insurance' won't be enforced on an individual level(someone please refute that if you can)....I'm convinced of two things. Obama, Pelosi and Reid are the biggest morons in the history of the United States, or they're the smartest big government operators to ever live. There is only one outcome to a system that doesn't force people to have insurance, but DOES force insurance companies to give insurance to people REGARDLESS of pre-existing condition. Bankruptcy.

That makes it all so baffling. The US in my mind is turning into a corporatist-fascist country. The rich and powerful with extreme influence, and the government with the string pulling behind the scene.

And I'm no Tower either.

I also agree with Thor. Especially on the food issue. But that is a whole other thread.

So what you're saying is I can use speeding tickets as currency

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by OilersBaby

i havent gone through the pages and pages of this thread but living in the USA, I have my opinion. As an educated, married person, this SUCKS. Why should I have to pay for everyone else's healthcare?

And that there is exactly the reason I didn't like living in the U.S.. That actually is a common opinion in the states. Personally, I like that my country is more than a bunch of individuals, but we are a society that believes that we are better off working TOGETHER. Universal health care means that we believe are better off ensuring that ALL people have equal access to health care, even if it means that those with above average incomes are paying higher taxes to pay for those with below average incomes.

I do have an above average income, and have a decent house and a few luxuries because of it. And I certainly do not mind that my taxes are going to pay for the health care and education of ALL Canadians, not just mine.

I, personally, think it is horribly wrong to say "I worked hard so I should get to see a doctor when I'm ill, but that guy over there has had trouble finding work so he doesn't deserve to be treated for his cancer." That is just abhorrent to me.

A co-worker of mine and I were having this same discussion. He said "I contribute more to society as a computer programmer than someone who is unemployed, so I should have better health care.". I then brought up my friend who was having a lot of trouble finding work, so she started volunteering at a homeless shelter. Her education background was in social work and so she was volunteering as a counsellor, helping those with mental health issues get into programs, helping those with drug problems into rehab programs and getting those that wanted to get off the street into jobs such as janitor or labour positions. She worked there as a volunteer for two years until the shelter got a grant to start paying her. Point to this story? Just because you make more money than another person does NOT mean you contribute more to society than they do and does NOT mean you are more worthy of the services required for life.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

And that there is exactly the reason I didn't like living in the U.S.. That actually is a common opinion in the states. Personally, I like that my country is more than a bunch of individuals, but we are a society that believes that we are better off working TOGETHER. Universal health care means that we believe are better off ensuring that ALL people have equal access to health care, even if it means that those with above average incomes are paying higher taxes to pay for those with below average incomes.

I do have an above average income, and have a decent house and a few luxuries because of it. And I certainly do not mind that my taxes are going to pay for the health care and education of ALL Canadians, not just mine.

I, personally, think it is horribly wrong to say "I worked hard so I should get to see a doctor when I'm ill, but that guy over there has had trouble finding work so he doesn't deserve to be treated for his cancer." That is just abhorrent to me.

A co-worker of mine and I were having this same discussion. He said "I contribute more to society as a computer programmer than someone who is unemployed, so I should have better health care.". I then brought up my friend who was having a lot of trouble finding work, so she started volunteering at a homeless shelter. Her education background was in social work and so she was volunteering as a counsellor, helping those with mental health issues get into programs, helping those with drug problems into rehab programs and getting those that wanted to get off the street into jobs such as janitor or labour positions. She worked there as a volunteer for two years until the shelter got a grant to start paying her. Point to this story? Just because you make more money than another person does NOT mean you contribute more to society than they do and does NOT mean you are more worthy of the services required for life.

I thought you said you we're working for the government, no?

If so, you don't pay taxes. You are receiving other people's tax dollars. BIG difference.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

I thought you said you we're working for the government, no? If so, you don't pay taxes. You are receiving other people's tax dollars. BIG difference.

That's bull. The people who work in the civil service are paid for the work that they do and are taxed the same as everyone else. I put in as many hours and work just as hard as anyone else for the money I earn.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

That's bull. The people who work in the civil service are paid for the work that they do and are taxed the same as everyone else. I put in as many hours and work just as hard as anyone else for the money I earn.

It's not bull. You don't contribute to the tax revenue. You are getting paid from it. What you do is irrelevant.

[Devils'Advocate]

So in your world, doctors, firemen, policemen, the military... none of them pay taxes and as such cannot say that they are happy that their tax dollars are going to health and education?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

So in your world, doctors, firemen, policemen, the military... none of them pay taxes and as such cannot say that they are happy that their tax dollars are going to health and education?

LOL my world? Dude, I'm not saying their jobs are worthless. They aren't.

What I am saying is that they do not contribute to the tax revenue, ergo they do not pay taxes.

If I get paid $100 and I get taxed at the 20% rate, I PUT $20 dollars IN the tax revenue money bag.

If you get paid $100 and you get taxed at 20% rate, you TAKE $80 FROM the revenue money bag.

What we do for a job is irrelevant from the "money stream" point of view.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

If I get paid $100 and I get taxed at the 20% rate, I PUT $20 dollars IN the tax revenue money bag.

If you get paid $100 and you get taxed at 20% rate, you TAKE $80 FROM the revenue money bag.

I got paid $100 because I did $100 worth of work. My $20 bucks in is the same as your $20 in.

If I walked away with the $100 I earned and gave nothing back, then you could say that I don't pay taxes.

But just for clarity's sake, you are saying that doctors and soldiers CANNOT say "I'm glad my tax dollars are going to health care" because neither doctors nor soldiers pay taxes?

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by OilersBaby

i havent gone through the pages and pages of this thread but living in the USA, I have my opinion. As an educated, married person, this SUCKS. Why should I have to pay for everyone else's healthcare? Its mine and my husbands tax dollars that will have to support people who dont have the motivation or desire to work.

Sorry to be selfish, but if I wanted universal healthcare, I would have stayed in Canada. Here, the more you work and the more you make, the more you pay tax to support those who dont. Whats the point of working our butts off? I might as well just make an average household income and let the wealthy take care of me. By the way, Im not rich. I live in California and the amount we make is defined as rich by a national standard but by crazy california standards, we can barely pay our mortgage.

Thats my rant.

How did you feel about your tax dollars going to 2 ridiculous wars? Were you cool with that?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

How did you feel about your tax dollars going to 2 ridiculous wars? Were you cool with that?

How do you feel about your tax dollars helping to subsidize large companies when tax cuts are given to them?

How did you feel about your tax dollars paying million dollar bonuses to the Execs of large firms?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

How did you feel about your tax dollars going to 2 illegal wars? Were you cool with that?

Fixed....

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

It's not bull. You don't contribute to the tax revenue. You are getting paid from it. What you do is irrelevant.

Wow, I can't believe you really think that. I guess if thats the way you think than basically I work for FREE every 5th year.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Fixed....

So the war sanctioned by the UN is illegal? To add to that. What war is legal?

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

How do you feel about your tax dollars helping to subsidize large companies when tax cuts are given to them?

How did you feel about your tax dollars paying million dollar bonuses to the Execs of large firms?

Not too well but I don't mind being taxed an extra few percent so that people can receive the basic human right of health care and I have the security of knowing that if something happens to me it won't bankrupt and ruin the lives of all of those around me.

And the things you complain about even on a porporcional level is much worse in the US than in Canada.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

How do you feel about your tax dollars helping to subsidize large companies when tax cuts are given to them?

How did you feel about your tax dollars paying million dollar bonuses to the Execs of large firms?

I feel much better about it now that those 'subsidies', which were granted in return for an interest in most cases, are resulting in multi billion dollar profits.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by OilersBaby

i havent gone through the pages and pages of this thread but living in the USA, I have my opinion. As an educated, married person, this SUCKS. Why should I have to pay for everyone else's healthcare? Its mine and my husbands tax dollars that will have to support people who dont have the motivation or desire to work.

Sorry to be selfish, but if I wanted universal healthcare, I would have stayed in Canada. Here, the more you work and the more you make, the more you pay tax to support those who dont. Whats the point of working our butts off? I might as well just make an average household income and let the wealthy take care of me. By the way, Im not rich. I live in California and the amount we make is defined as rich by a national standard but by crazy california standards, we can barely pay our mortgage.

Thats my rant.

You don't have to apolagize for being selfish, it is your money, and you have a right to want as much of it as possible to stay with you.

But I take issue with your comment regarding who you'd be supporting. Of course there will be some lazy people, taking advantage of the system, you'll get that in any society. But a large percentage of people you'll be supporting are people that are trying hard, but struggling to make ends meet, or people who get hit with unreasonable medical costs out of the blue, and have to choose between feeding their kids and getting the treatment they need.