Klein " We already give more than our fair share"

[transplant99]

Couldn't agree with him more either. Way to go Ralph....speaking exactly what the majority of your constituents believe.

"It's not in the cards ... back then, it was the same thing in the rest of the country -- give me, give me, give me," said Klein, referring to the early 1980s, even as Alberta spiralled into a recession.

"Then the price of oil went down and the rest of Canada, of course, were wringing their hands in glee saying 'oh well, you deserved it'."

Canadians a quarter century ago, he said, demanded Albertans to share their wealth, "but they didn't offer to share in the very, very bad times," he said.

"We're sharing already, we're doing more than our share -- it's about $2,400 per person in Alberta we send to the rest of Canada," he said.




It's so true. Take take take.....but when things go sour...too damn bad.

Too make things even worse...the WASTE the Fiberals manage to accumulate year after year after year, just compounds the problem.

Canada needs change so badly its sad.

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2005/...221130-sun.html

[InTheSlot]

I could be wrong, because I am not too familiar with Canada and the relationships the Provinces have with one another, but it seems to me that there's a lot of feuding going on quite often. :unsure:

[Claeren]

Looking around at other nations, Canada doesn't look so bad.

Sure we have a lot to complain about but at the same time we have been doing a LOT better then most/all other nations for a number of years now, both provincially and federally.


Fueding is part of the nature of our federated state system.... you have to take the good with the bad...


Claeren.

[Flame Of Liberty]

I would be interested to know what exactly is Klein personally giving. Seems to me he is living off the same taxpayer money other provinces are demanding...

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 10:50 AM
I would be interested to know what exactly is Klein personally giving. Seems to me he is living off the same taxpayer money other provinces are demanding...

Your point being? Every politician does, and all the other ones are expecting Alberta to pay them. We pay for our own politicians, you can pay for yours.

[Cheese]

Lest you all forget...this is Canada, you live in it, and overall there is simply no better COUNTRY in the world. The myopic view of a few has always p!ssed me off. Of course the wealthy will help the needy...thats the way we are.
For some reason everyone here thinks that the rest of the country is out to get you. Sounds a bit like a Napoleon syndrome to me.
Either we are little countries within a large land mass where everyone can do what they please without worrying about their neighbors, or we simply help where we can. Yes Alberta helps...yes Ontario helps...same with other provinces. Yes theres issues with our FEDERAL Government...and some Provincial Governments...but no theres no valhalla....regardless what Flame Of Liberty wants you to think.
So heres your choice....run for parliament and help make the changes you think are needed. Hopefully everyone agrees with your ideas.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by FireFly@Sep 17 2005, 05:57 PM
Your point being? Every politician does, and all the other ones are expecting Alberta to pay them. We pay for our own politicians, you can pay for yours.

The point is he is a hypocrite. He say "we already give more..." but the truth is he as a person is not giving anything. If he said "Alberta taxpayers already give more..." that would be different.

[transplant99]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 12:50 PM
I would be interested to know what exactly is Klein personally giving. Seems to me he is living off the same taxpayer money other provinces are demanding...

Well...since he represents ALBERTANS and is talking obout OTHER provinces wanting more of ALBERTAS money....not sure what your point is.

I would think that you of all people would agree with him in that you wrote this in another thread....

What is mine is mine, i.e. it is _not_ yours. If I decide not to share it with you, and you start crying poor, demanding a share of what is not yours, what does that make you? A parasite.

Isn't he saying exactly the same thing??

And what is he personally giving? The same as ALL taxpaying Albertans. His money. IE: What is mine is mine (Alberta), i.e. it is _not_ yours.(Rest of Canada)

Right?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Cheese@Sep 17 2005, 06:06 PM
Lest you all forget...this is Canada, you live in it, and overall there is simply no better COUNTRY in the world. The myopic view of a few has always p!ssed me off. Of course the wealthy will help the needy...thats the way we are.
For some reason everyone here thinks that the rest of the country is out to get you. Sounds a bit like a Napoleon syndrome to me.
Either we are little countries within a large land mass where everyone can do what they please without worrying about their neighbors, or we simply help where we can. Yes Alberta helps...yes Ontario helps...same with other provinces. Yes theres issues with our FEDERAL Government...and some Provincial Governments...but no theres no valhalla....regardless what Flame Of Liberty wants you to think.
So heres your choice....run for parliament and help make the changes you think are needed. Hopefully everyone agrees with your ideas.

Not trying to get into a passing match, but in how many countries have you lived? Are you really able to compare countries based on your own experience? Or are you just singing a song "we are the greatest, we share, thats what we do, so give me your money"?

[Resolute 14]

That is merely semantics, FoL, and a very weak reason to attack Klein. There are a great many legitimate reasons which you can use to pile on Ralph, but speaking for Albertans - when he most definitely does speak for an overwhelming majority in this case - is not one of them.

Simply put, Klein is right.

[Hakan]

The reason those oil royalties are 'yours' is because of some privy council over in England decided to screw the Federal government 100 years ago for trying to have more sovereignty and rights for the people. That oil belongs to all Canadians IMO.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 17 2005, 06:10 PM
Well...since he represents ALBERTANS and is talking obout OTHER provinces wanting more of ALBERTAS money....not sure what your point is.

I would think that you of all people would agree with him in that you wrote this in another thread....



Isn't he saying exactly the same thing??

And what is he personally giving? The same as ALL taxpaying Albertans. His money. IE: What is mine is mine (Alberta), i.e. it is _not_ yours.(Rest of Canada)

Right?

Yeah but he as a person is _not_ a taxpayer. He receives his salary from taxpayer money. So he is not sharing anything. Taxpayers are.

Of course I agree with that Alberta taxpayers shouldnt be paying more. I wasnt questioning that.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Hakan@Sep 17 2005, 05:13 PM
The reason those oil royalties are 'yours' is because of some privy council over in England decided to screw the Federal government 100 years ago for trying to have more sovereignty and rights for the people. That oil belongs to all Canadians IMO.

Thank god, can you imagine what kind of shape Alberta would be in if the government got thier greedy stupid hands on it all. We'd all be living in Shanty's with open flames while every government official in Ontario would be living in Saddam style palaces while deciding on how to buy more Eastern Canadian votes, or spending it on another useless pet project where they can line the pockets of thier friends.

On a corruption level the only difference between the federal government of Canada and a third world dictator for life is that our esteemed political collegues are more polished when it comes to trying to bury scandals.

[transplant99]

That oil belongs to all Canadians IMO.

Good one.

Then all Quebec Hydro is for all Canadians as well. And BC forestry...and maritimes fisheries.

Sorry...your opinion, simply put, is so far from reality its laughable.

Beyond that however...its not just "royalties" from oil that has Alberta is such a great fiscal position. It was the sacrifice of ALBERTANS when Klein implemented his policy that he was elected on in 1990. People in Alberta PAID for so much of what they have now sown then. It was with foresight and determination that Kleins government allowed for todays riches. How does that make it "all Canadians" exactly?

Have the royalties helped expodentially? Without question...the province has been very fortunate of late. So what? It's still Albertas money....like it or not.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Hakan@Sep 17 2005, 10:13 AM
The reason those oil royalties are 'yours' is because of some privy council over in England decided to screw the Federal government 100 years ago for trying to have more sovereignty and rights for the people. That oil belongs to all Canadians IMO.

Shortsighted argument.

The oil is ours because we are constitutionally entitled to it. Last I checked, England didnt decide that the 1982 Constitution was right for us, Canada did.

Of course, Alberta already shares more than it receives in royalties with the rest of Canada, so I can very easily state that the entirety of our oil royalties are being shared with all Canadians.

However, along the same lines, we'll take our share of other provinces forestry, mining, fishery, etc resource revenues, retroactive to the past 60 years or so, with interest.

Didnt think so either.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 01:11 PM
Not trying to get into a passing match, but in how many countries have you lived? Are you really able to compare countries based on your own experience? Or are you just singing a song "we are the greatest, we share, thats what we do, so give me your money"?

well I have lived in Canada all my life...across the country actually, east and west. I have travelled extensively throughout the world on business, staying in some countries for extended periods, and have talked with many many people from other countries sharing thoughts on politics, religion and life in general. Thats Eastern Block countries, European, Chinese, American, South American and African. I have also worked with and become good friends with many individuals who decided to move to Canada from many parts of the world.
My first wife was Hungarian my second wife is Portuguese and I am first generation Ukranian.
So IF you are suggesting I need to actually live in the other countries FULL time in order to have "your" perspective...your 100% wrong. I think 50 years of life including travel for business, personal and friendship abroad is enough to make an informed decision...dont you? Quite frankly i dont think you have even lived 1/10th of my experience...so what makes you think I should listen to you?

[transplant99]

Yeah but he as a person is _not_ a taxpayer. He receives his salary from taxpayer money. So he is not sharing anything. Taxpayers are

.



He doesnt pay taxes on his salary? What?

So because he is an Albertan who gets paid to fill an elected duty, and that pay comes from those that elected him to do that duty....he isnt a taxpayer?

You are one confusing guy.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Cheese@Sep 17 2005, 06:21 PM
well I have lived in Canada all my life...across the country actually, east and west. I have travelled extensively throughout the world on business, staying in some countries for extended periods, and have talked with many many people from other countries sharing thoughts on politics, religion and life in general. Thats Eastern Block countries, European, Chinese, American, South American and African. I have also worked with and become good friends with many individuals who decided to move to Canada from many parts of the world.
My first wife was Hungarian my second wife is Portuguese and I am first generation Ukranian.
So IF you are suggesting I need to actually live in the other countries FULL time in order to have "your" perspective...your 100% wrong. I think 50 years of life including travel for business, personal and friendship abroad is enough to make an informed decision...dont you? Quite frankly i dont think you have even lived 1/10th of my experience...so what makes you think I should listen to you?

Where have I said I have enough experience to say which country in the world is the best to live in? I didnt make such claim, it was you who felt experienced enough for such a claim.

You cannot convince me that merely visiting a country or talking to emigrants gives you a good read about the country and quality of life. Yeah you can say whether it is good or bad, but you cannot make a finer judgement. Canada vs Cuba, that call is easy. Canada vs Australia? Norway vs Sweden? Spain vs Portugal? Japan vs South Korea?

I am suggesting (from my own experience, I have lived in 4 different countries) you need to live in there at least 1 year to really find out whats the country and its people like. Even one year is not enough when you only live in one city.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 17 2005, 06:25 PM
.



He doesnt pay taxes on his salary? What?

So because he is an Albertan who gets paid to fill an elected duty, and that pay comes from those that elected him to do that duty....he isnt a taxpayer?

You are one confusing guy.

A quick quote from Making Economic Sense by M. Rothbard because I am too confusing to make sense:

And that is: contrary to carefully instilled myth, politicians and bureaucrats pay no taxes. Take, for example, a politician who receives a salary of, say, $80,000; assume he duly files his income tax return, and pays $20,000. We must realize that he does not in reality pay $20,000 in taxes; instead, he is simply a net tax-receiver of $60,000. The notion that he pays taxes is simply an accounting fiction, designed to bamboozle the citizenry into believing that he and the rest of us are on the same moral and financial footing before the law. He pays nothing; he simply is extracting $60,000 per annum from our pockets.

The same principle, too, applies to sales or property or any other tax. Bureaucrats and politicians do not pay them; they are simply subtracted from the net transfer to themselves from the body of taxpayers.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Sep 17 2005, 01:29 PM
Where have I said I have enough experience to say which country in the world is the best to live in? I didnt make such claim, it was you who felt experienced enough for such a claim.

You cannot convince me that merely visiting a country or talking to emigrants gives you a good read about the country and quality of life. Yeah you can say whether it is good or bad, but you cannot make a finer judgement. Canada vs Cuba, that call is easy. Canada vs Australia? Norway vs Sweden? Spain vs Portugal? Japan vs South Korea?

I am suggesting (from my own experience, I have lived in 4 different countries) you need to live in there at least 1 year to really find out whats the country and its people like. Even one year is not enough when you only live in one city.

Not trying to get into a passing match, but in how many countries have you lived? Are you really able to compare countries based on your own experience? Or are you just singing a song "we are the greatest, we share, thats what we do, so give me your money"?

YOU are the one who started the p1ssing match FOL. You think you have a better read than most here because you have lived in a few countries for a year? IF you lived in those countries with the same myopic view you have now I would suggest you didnt really learn anything anyways.
OR is it because you are, or assume to be, well read in a particular form of politics that you eschew? No different than a well read Liberal, Communist or Conservative IMHO.
There is NO Valhalla present now...no Government that represents everyone and all types fairly....anywhere. However, Canada with all its flaws is still recognized WORLD wide as one of, if not the best places in the world to live. Dont try comapring apples and oranges.
Until we as a WORLD decide to eliminate borders and live as the people of the world there will always be BS like this...haves and have nots.