How/Why does Tod Button still have a job?

[Mightyfire89]

I think 10 years is enough of a sample size to fairly say that Button is just not getting it done. He consistently passes on the more talented guys and goes for the pluggers and if that's because Darryl is telling him to do that (go for the safer picks at the expense of overlooking the skill guys), then they both need to go. I would have fired Button years ago.

In any organization there has to be accountability or else you're doomed to mediocrity at best.

The Flames have basically been a disaster at the draft under Button's watch. Enough is enough, I say.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Krack Korn

The Flames have basically been a disaster at the draft under Button's watch. Enough is enough, I say.

Not a disaster in my opinion, but certainly bad enough that even "change for it's own sake" is worth it right about now. If we ever want to be a top organization, we clearly need better drafting than what we're getting now.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

As a side, there was a time that the Flames were one of the more innovative drafting teams (drafting Makarov as an older European before it was popular, success at drafting from the U.S. college and university circuits while other teams overlooked them - often with late round picks). Now we seem to focus mostly on mainstream sources (CHL, with a few Europeans from Sweden and Finland, the occasion US university players). With late round picks, I'd love to see the Flames take a chance on some players from central and eastern europe (Russia, Czech Rep. and Slovakia) for a change. Countries like Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Norway and Slovenia are starting to progress... do the Flames even send scouts to places like that?

I don't think there is much point in scouting too heavily in those countries given that a 22 year old European player can become a free agent. For the most part many of the young Russians who are not top line material will stay in Russia. Slovakia and the Czech Republic have both been a bit dead demographically for the past 5 or so seasons. The better Scandinavian kids from Denmark or Norway end up in Sweden anyway to play junior.

Right now most of your NHL hockey players are going to come from Canada, the US, Sweeden, or Finland. The players from the other countries are going to be the guys that play in the World Juniors or other tourneys like the under 18's. Since 2005 there have been very few Russians drafted and get to the NHL, let alone guys who've made much of an impact.

[VladtheImpaler]

The one I still find oddest of all our "misses" is Weber. I know everyone passed on him, and Nashville passed on him a couple of times, but we have a WHL bias, and the guy played in Calgary, what, 6 times every year - just bizarre. I am not even blaming anyone - I am just saying it's weird, given how much we love Western boys and how much we love defensemen...

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

The one I still find oddest of all our "misses" is Weber. I know everyone passed on him, and Nashville passed on him a couple of times, but we have a WHL bias, and the guy played in Calgary, what, 6 times every year - just bizarre. I am not even blaming anyone - I am just saying it's weird, given how much we love Western boys and how much we love defensemen...

Easy explanation.
He improved from his days in the WHL
it does happen
That is the part that you can't control, is the players willingness to improve.

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

The one I still find oddest of all our "misses" is Weber. I know everyone passed on him, and Nashville passed on him a couple of times, but we have a WHL bias, and the guy played in Calgary, what, 6 times every year - just bizarre. I am not even blaming anyone - I am just saying it's weird, given how much we love Western boys and how much we love defensemen...

Keith, Seabrook and Tyler Myers were WHL boys as well... its easy to say in hindsight but yeah this team has missed a lot of players. as for the Phaneuf draft, there were a lot of good players in the first round that year, more than likely we just got lucky; if he wasnt a red deer rebel, would he have been picked? time for a change

[IliketoPuck]

Screw Button, how does Mike Milbury have a job still?

I remember seeing him comment on some of the trades at the deadline over the last couple years and I'm like, really mike? really?

You single handedly took the Islanders franchise and set them back 20 years. Single handedly. Congratulations. The man deserves a Darwin award, I can't fathom how he still has a voice of opinion in the hockey media.

[Reign of Fire]

I have always said we need better scouts. I think this off-season should be spent upgrading our scouting staff, cause clearly they are not getting the job done and that includes Tod Button.

[afc wimbledon]

As a general rule I don't like first round defense picks, they take so long to mature most teams have a different management in place and give up on the kid before they 'fruit'.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

The way most teams work is the head scout puts together a ranking list, generally rounds 1-4 or so. The ranking list has heavy input from the other scouts as nearly every position is debated (and usually many times).

The GM comes in when the list is nearly finalized and generally has a few questions ("why this guy ahead of that guy") and the scouts then justify the order to the GM. There's some rearranging of the order at this time, too, if the GM has a valid point.

[Daradon]

I think it's hard to compare our scouting results with results long years past, like when we picked up Suter or Fleury. I think you saw later round picks turning into great players that more often in years gone by because the scouting of the whole league was worse. It's much more of s science now and there is much more consensus now, so you're going to find the whole league is going to have lower results with later picks.

I do like your comparison to the rest of the NW teams though and it does seem to prove that this is an area in which we could improve.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I think it's hard to compare our scouting results with results long years past, like when we picked up Suter or Fleury. I think you saw later round picks turning into great players that more often in years gone by because the scouting of the whole league was worse.

I do like your comparison to the rest of the NW teams though and it does seem to prove that this is an area in which we could improve.

Its an area without a salary cap. and it, along with medical and training staff is where most teams are trying to get an edge.

[Dorkmaster]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

As a side, there was a time that the Flames were one of the more innovative drafting teams (drafting Makarov as an older European before it was popular, success at drafting from the U.S. college and university circuits while other teams overlooked them - often with late round picks). Now we seem to focus mostly on mainstream sources (CHL, with a few Europeans from Sweden and Finland, the occasion US university players). With late round picks, I'd love to see the Flames take a chance on some players from central and eastern europe (Russia, Czech Rep. and Slovakia) for a change. Countries like Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Norway and Slovenia are starting to progress... do the Flames even send scouts to places like that?

You don't see very many picks from central europe because as a whole, drafting out of central europe has dropped big time. There aren't even that many Russian players in the league right now.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Dorkmaster

You don't see very many picks from central europe because as a whole, drafting out of central europe has dropped big time. There aren't even that many Russian players in the league right now.

the good ones are playing jnr here anyway, you can scout them in Brandon and Tri Cities cheaper than Vladivostock.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Dorkmaster

You don't see very many picks from central europe because as a whole, drafting out of central europe has dropped big time. There aren't even that many Russian players in the league right now.

But that could make it a good place to find dark horse...possibly, maybe. While the talent pool might be smaller, if fewer people are scouting them, it could mean that you find someone others might not even consider. Who knows... the next Datsyuk could be waiting. I'm sure Detroit knew what they were doing.

I think back to when we got Nieuwendyk in the 2nd round, and players like Suter, Otto and Ranheim in later rounds because scouting the university and high school level players in the U.S was seen as fringe territory.

Although Sylvan had a good point about not holding Europeans rights forever these days, which makes the risk a bit bigger now.

[SoulOfTheFlame]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Again though - you want things to be better but you are refusing to look for solutions beyond firing the head scout. Perhaps there are indeed other factors at work - and even if a new guy was brought we'd end up with the same results.

I guess I'm trying to encourage people to look beyond the all-too-easy answer of pointing the figure at one guy.

Or maybe it's not as complex as you think it is?

Look at the guys job description, look at the results, if we drafted true talent there'd be no way to hold guys back. As I said, it's not like many of these guys have broken out with other organizations.

The head scout is responsible for his scouting team and achieving results. He hasn't, he should go. At this point, how much worse could we be trying someone new?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by SoulOfTheFlame

Look at the guys job description, look at the results, if we drafted true talent there'd be no way to hold guys back. As I said, it's not like many of these guys have broken out with other organizations.

True talent... like Daniel Ryder?

Ryder was drafted by the Calgary Flames in the third round of the 2005 NHL Entry Draft. He won the Wayne Gretzky 99 Award as the Most Valuable Player in the 2006 OHL playoffs, leading his Peterborough Petes to the J. Ross Robertson Cup, scoring 31 points in 19 games.

[koop]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

This is what I'm talking about - there are other factors at play beyond just the scouting - and this is a good example. I'm not sure I agree 100% with it or not, but I think you can make a case that Sutter over the years hasn't let enough vets walk via free agency.

I'm not saying that there aren't other factors in play aside from just scouting, but the top scoring forward drafted by the Flames (since 2003) was traded away for a 4th round pick, and as of right now the only drafted players on the roster are Pardy and Backlund, and neither of those guys is an everyday player right now. So basically your saying that because the Flames have traded some picks, and because they aren't picking early it is acceptable/excusable that they don't have a single drafted player since 2003 making an impact on the NHL team right now. Are there reasons for that? Sure, but some teams have had less picks, and some have had later picks, but all of them are getting more production from drafted players than the Flames are right now.

With the way teams are getting younger and faster drafting properly is a necessity, and not just for long term success, but short term as well. So yeah certain factors can explain why the team isn't stacked with good young players, but it doesn't explain or excuse the lack of any type of impact from drafted players on the NHL team right now. I'm not asking for a Crosby, Malkin, Backstrom, Kane, Toews, etc, but being able to draft just one player even if he was just the equivalent of Stajan or Hagman(2 guys we traded our best drafted player for) would be huge for this team.

[Claeren]

I think it is the fans fault. (Somewhat serious, somewhat joking)


Just look at how a huge contingent of the fan base gets when the team has an off year? If the team cannot take a breath, let young players learn the game, and so on, you can't develop talent properly. In Calgary the fans demand to win every single game and develop star talent -- I am not sure they go together very often.

Detroit has a huge advantage because they are really good but without a lot of the scrutiny from the fans/media liek what a Canadian team faces. You don't ruin a young player if he makes a mistake because it is not what every person is talking about the next day at work.

Colorado this year is another example, other than losing some money from a unfilled building they were able to slot young guys in and hope for the best. Those young players started to come together and win.... for themn it started in the second half of last season, not just this season. Fans werent calling for the GM to be fired due to having a young starting roster like they would have been calling for here in Calgary.





If Sutter knew the fans wewre willing to watch the team develop over 2 years instead of always demanding to win-now I am sure we would see more young guys in the line-up.



That all being said, I do think the Flames have to examine what they are doing with their prospects. They might be doing everything like most of the teams in the NHL, but generally being the best has to do with doing something extra AND better than everyone else. What innovative new systems and processes are the Flames applying to their drafting and development to outperform their rivals? None that I can see.



Claeren.

[Huntingwhale]