Where do these people live?!

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I have no doubt it's a more vibrant and exciting place. Two million people are crammed in there and it's in the middle of the craziest place on earth.

As for "apathetic, disengaged, lazy, culturally-cannibalistic (whatever the hell that means)" -- that's a fancy way of saying "stupid" as far as I'm concerned. If someone describes me that way, they are calling me a moron.

Unless you meant it as a compliment.

No, not stupid. Just

a) apathetic
b) disengaged
c) lazy
d) culturally-cannibalistic (feeding on the old rather than creating and supporting the new... and what new there was tended to be merely a reappropriation of the old with a 'post-' disclaimer placed before it)

some of the most intelligent people I've ever met fit all those labels. Which makes it all the more depressing.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

No, not stupid. Just

a) apathetic
b) disengaged
c) lazy
d) culturally-cannibalistic (feeding on the old rather than creating and supporting the new... and what new there was tended to be merely a reappropriation of the old with a 'post-' disclaimer placed before it)

some of the most intelligent people I've ever met fit all those labels. Which makes it all the more depressing.

I find this a little funny because your posts remind me of a lot of people I know. The "intellectuals" I know are also generally depressed about the state of society and they often miss the beauty and excitement of everyday life because of it. You're still young, but don't turn into that kind of guy.

[Hack&Lube]

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

This is more relevant to the game thread than here.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Our government deliberately tries to bring in the most uneducated and poorest first.

This is quite simply not true.
Wealthy and educated have far easier access to immigrating into Canada. A couple of common examples:
-Hong Kong immigrants who have brought tons of wealth into the economy and were encouraged to immigrate because of it (See Vancouver).
-Punjabi immigrants from India, who despite representing a fairly small portion of India's population, control a large amount of it's wealth and therefore have immigrated here more frequently than India's other major ethnic subgroups.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

No, not stupid. Just

a) apathetic
b) disengaged
c) lazy
d) culturally-cannibalistic (feeding on the old rather than creating and supporting the new... and what new there was tended to be merely a reappropriation of the old with a 'post-' disclaimer placed before it)

some of the most intelligent people I've ever met fit all those labels. Which makes it all the more depressing.

You seem to be of the mindset that Culture has a strict definition and that by ticking off boxes a place becomes more Cultured.

The issue is that you have an image of culture that is defined by your ideals. Having old Roman Collesiums, intelligent philosophical discussions, high population densities leading to more interactions amoung people on a daily basis.

So when you come to a Culture that is different that initially was founded on wide open prarie and a railway rather than a viable water supply in a desert you are going to get a different culture.

As well your complaints of a lack of intelligent bar conversations meaning we are devoid of culture rings hollow to me. The Booze/Club culture that infueses North American society is niether better nor worse then intelligent conversation. It just is.

The Burb culture is part of the connection to the land where everyone wants to own something. So just because you don't find the affects particularly stimulating doesn't mean it isn't culture.

We also have a significant Outdoors culture, a need to escape the city and try to find our own solitary place. You see this in all of the camping, hiking, fishing and hunting that goes on.

So I believe that your statements of Apethetic, Disengaged, etc are false. We have a different culture no better no worse. Perhaps a better word would be that our culture is more individualistic and that can be explained quite simply by our history.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by GGG

The issue is that you have an image of culture that is defined by your ideals. Having old Roman Collesiums, intelligent philosophical discussions, high population densities leading to more interactions amoung people on a daily basis.

I didn't 'come' to anything. I'm not a first generation immigrant. My immediate family has been in Canada for three generations. I can trace distant relatives as far back as the 1930's.

You're not getting my point. My initial point was nothing more than that there is a lack of vibrancy in Canada. There is not a lack of culture in Canada. I never said there was. I just feel that there is a lack of engagement in that culture. Yes, due to the 'burb culture, etc.

Yes, the outdoor culture is kickass, that I'll grant you.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

I didn't 'come' to anything. I'm not a first generation immigrant. My immediate family has been in Canada for three generations. I can trace distant relatives as far back as the 1930's.

Sorry, my apologies I was under the impression that you were an imigrant to Canada. I missed the first post you made on the topic where you clearly say that you are not an 1st gen immigrant. Aside from that I think my point still stands.

I feel that you are trying to tick off boxes of what is culture. Local Art = Culture, Crappy underfunded local Movies = Culture.

It seems that you don't accept the mainstream Booze Culture and individualism as a form of Culture that has evolved due to the Geography both politcal and physical that the City has evolved in.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by GGG

Sorry, my apologies I was under the impression that you were an imigrant to Canada. Aside from that I think my point still stands.

I feel that you are trying to tick off boxes of what is culture. Local Art = Culture, Crappy underfunded local Movies = Culture.

It seems that you don't accept the mainstream Booze Culture and individualism as a form of Culture that has evolved due to the Geography both politcal and physical that the City has evolved in.

I get what you're saying. Maybe I'm simply using the wrong terminology.

There's nothing wrong with getting drunk with your buddies, just to get drunk with your buddies. It's just not for me. There are plenty of other Canadians who feel the same way, and we try to create an urban culture, in the sense I was trying to convey, but are met with a lack of engagement because so much of the country is engaged in a different culture. I guess I was just using the wrong terminology. And for the record, it's not like this culture I refer to is not impacted by the different culture you speak of. Canadian landscape art tends to be spectacular, and contemporary artists seem to be particularly engaged in it. The Canadian outdoors are part of the life of most Canadians, I would think.

For the record, I happen to think Canadian film is awesome. If no other director, at least Guy Maddin is surely almost indisputably awesome.

[GGG]

If you want to create and Urban culture you need Urban density. So land/commute times needs to become so expensive that people are willing to sacrifice the Two car garages and move into smaller town houses and Condo's in the inner city. Urban culture is a function of bodies on the streets. With enough bodies buisnesses can afford to service specific niches rather than trying to appeal to the broadest demographic.

So if Calgary is to develop the Urban culture it needs to stop building LRT's and Freeway's and spend that money on subsidizing downtown housing to create an incentive over the longer term to populate downtown.

My view of how culture evolves is that it is purely based on geography and can't be changed, created or funded with programs to promote certain aspects. To truely change culture you need to fundementally change the way people live and interact.

I would agree that their is some good canadian film but I would say 80% of what the NFB funds is terrible.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

So if Calgary is to develop the Urban culture it needs to stop building LRT's and Freeway's and spend that money on subsidizing downtown housing to create an incentive over the longer term to populate downtown.

I don't think you need to subsidize downtown. Just stop subsidizing suburbia.

Originally Posted by GGG

It seems that you don't accept the mainstream Booze Culture and individualism as a form of Culture that has evolved due to the Geography both politcal and physical that the City has evolved in.

How would you define mainstream booze culture in Canda? Because I don't find it to be anything worth celebrating.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by SebC

I don't think you need to subsidize downtown. Just stop subsidizing suburbia.

How would you define mainstream booze culture in Canda? Because I don't find it to be anything worth celebrating.

Really mainstream booze culture is just an extension of civilizations use of mind altering substances and ritualistic dance in both mating and recreation.

Also booze culture is well permiated is western society. Really Europe is just Booze Culture with Castles. I'm not sure its worth celebrating but to say that intellectual conversation and supporting the arts is arbitrarily better than booze culture is what I object to.

Generally I would believe that it is driven by the fact that society is so easy and without consequence and the fact that we have extended youth well into the twenties. Booze culture is also driven out of the instinct to breed.

[Zevo]

Sorry Mars but your posts about lack of culture annoy the crap out of me. Have you bothered to explore the rest of Canada or are you using Calgary as your only cultural experience of Canada. Come to Vancouver Island and learn about the thousands of years of first nations 'culture' here. Maybe go see Cathedral Grove and trees that are 800 years old. Hike the West Coast Trail, it's easily as impressive as any Roman ruins I've seen.

As to the lack of intellectual conversation at bars, maybe it's because life is so fricken good here we've gone soft, but hey I'm good with that.

Your posts reek of cultural snobbery.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Sorry Mars but your posts about lack of culture annoy the crap out of me. Have you bothered to explore the rest of Canada or are you using Calgary as your only cultural experience of Canada. Come to Vancouver Island and learn about the thousands of years of first nations 'culture' here. Maybe go see Cathedral Grove and trees that are 800 years old. Hike the West Coast Trail, it's easily as impressive as any Roman ruins I've seen.

As to the lack of intellectual conversation at bars, maybe it's because life is so fricken good here we've gone soft, but hey I'm good with that.

Your posts reek of cultural snobbery.

maybe it's my own fault that my posts have been this misconstrued.

I love the Canadian outdoors. I love Vancouver Island. I haven't hiked the West Coast Trail yet, but I intend to.

I'm sorry if my posts suggested anything to the contrary. I don't know how many times I have to say that I LOVE Canada and like it MUCH more than anywhere else I've been. I simply dislike my generation's apathy. That's really what the very first post that started all of this was about. I noted that the youth culture there was more vibrant than it was here. I truly do believe that.

That does not indicate, in any way, that I am disparaging anything about Canada except for this sense of apathy and disengagement.

Last summer, instead of buying a ticket to Amman, I went to explore the Maritime provinces. This summer I am driving to Toronto and doing a full-scale tour of Ontario, if everything goes well. The summer after that I will probably tour more of the West Coast.

I much prefer North America to Europe and the Middle East. Period. End of. However, there are things North America doesn't have that I think areas of Europe and areas of the Middle East do. And it is a different culture, not necessarily a superior one. I never said Canada had no culture, and I never said it had an inferior culture.

I just said it was sad that more young Canadians were not actively engaged in the cultural scene here.

That's not to take away from the stunning beauty of this country or the awesomeness of the people or the nature of life here. It's just to say that sometimes you can't get the sort of thing other parts of the world offer here. Which is frustrating sometimes, when you really yearn for that sort of vibrancy and excitement.

So, no, I never said anything of a 'lack of culture' in Canada. I said everything of a lack of cultural engagement from my generation in Canada. I'm sorry you took my posts the wrong way (and it probably is my fault), I really am.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

I frequent cbc.ca and tend to check out the comments section from time to time to gauge the general opinions of my contemporaries. Despite all the negative connotations implied by this thread, we can rest assured that the sample size is very, very small, somewhat insignificant in fact. Don't let the opinions of so few force your hand at painting the general populous with one brush! I find myself disagreeing with much of what is posted by the commentators on many forums, including this one, yet what sees that I don't despise every canuck troll is that they are a small portion of their fanbase. I don't agree with much of what is said and vote thumbs up or down. I don't feel that all of those opinions account for the entire populace. If you choose to view every radical as a representative for the majority, then you are seriously mistaken.

I have no problem with immigration. This country was established on the very tenets of the concept. I do have a problem with the insidious side of immigration. Guys like Jackie Tran are a good example of immigration abuse. This guy didn't immigrate with the intention of improving the lives of the community he was applying to be a part of, nor of his own family's life. He was a gangster that probably sold out his own community. If he was a responsible first generation immigrant who wanted to contribute to the future of canada and his family's place within it, then why jeopardize your family's security by being prone to deportation? I see countless 1st Gen. immigrants whether they be arab, african, indian, pakistani,vietnamese, japanese chinese, korean et. al who are committed to their families and their new country and the guys who abuse the system give these diaspora a bad name.

The good parts of these communities posses citizenship and personal commitment all the while working grueling schedules yet remaining extremely optimistic when weighing their former with current situations. Some see that life here is only politically easier than their countries most of the time, yet they strive for future generations. These people are who make me proud. They, after all, are like the spirit of my immigrant ancestors. I have all types of friends and contacts as many of you do, thus I;m sure that if honest census were actually taken, the numbers would show Canadains are more 'immigrant' than not and that contributes to the system at large which admittedly is a very young nation in comparison.

Of course Canada has little culture respectively in comparison to civilizations like the arabic cultures, or the asian cultures or the african cultures or the european cultures, but what it possesses and the others do not is an element of all of them contributing to one. Canada has its culture, you just need to think about it if you haven't experienced it. Be open to new ideas and stories!...Travel, appreciate the diverse cuisines that occupy a new restaurant in your neighborhood. Find hobbies for the winter, enjoy the outdoors in the summer...

I have lived in Canada my whole life and am eternally grateful that millions of people sacrificed their means to see that countries like this with its political constitutions and charters could thrive. People like my grandfather fought for this land while the people he was liberating were the people his son would marry into thus coalescing our immigrant roots even stronger. He fought for the dream that future generations could live free without prejudice. This is what is happening and if more visible minorities are immigrating to Canada then that needs to be embraced and tomorrow will have a place for all of us while we abide under the maple leaf.

The youth are fine, it's just that you don't know any of them; The ones who are doing the things you, POM, bemoan as absent. As relevant as Canada is, its age considered, it's not as old or as established as some of the more character rich nations of Jordan, Turkey, Egypt so give it time. I know it's tough that you want it all right now, but as good as it is now is comparably better than others. Perhaps your destiny wasn't to be young in a canada that catered to the demands of the youth. But don't lose yours fighting these battles of vanity.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

maybe it's my own fault that my posts have been this misconstrued.

I love the Canadian outdoors. I love Vancouver Island. I haven't hiked the West Coast Trail yet, but I intend to.

I'm sorry if my posts suggested anything to the contrary. I don't know how many times I have to say that I LOVE Canada and like it MUCH more than anywhere else I've been. I simply dislike my generation's apathy. That's really what the very first post that started all of this was about. I noted that the youth culture there was more vibrant than it was here. I truly do believe that.

That does not indicate, in any way, that I am disparaging anything about Canada except for this sense of apathy and disengagement.

Last summer, instead of buying a ticket to Amman, I went to explore the Maritime provinces. This summer I am driving to Toronto and doing a full-scale tour of Ontario, if everything goes well. The summer after that I will probably tour more of the West Coast.

I much prefer North America to Europe and the Middle East. Period. End of. However, there are things North America doesn't have that I think areas of Europe and areas of the Middle East do. And it is a different culture, not necessarily a superior one. I never said Canada had no culture, and I never said it had an inferior culture.

I just said it was sad that more young Canadians were not actively engaged in the cultural scene here.

That's not to take away from the stunning beauty of this country or the awesomeness of the people or the nature of life here. It's just to say that sometimes you can't get the sort of thing other parts of the world offer here. Which is frustrating sometimes, when you really yearn for that sort of vibrancy and excitement.

So, no, I never said anything of a 'lack of culture' in Canada. I said everything of a lack of cultural engagement from my generation in Canada. I'm sorry you took my posts the wrong way (and it probably is my fault), I really am.

I didn't read this before I posted my last contribution. If you feel angst towards your generation, then what's new? Canada has vibrancy that sometimes is only tangible in instances like the olympics or the red-mile, but there is other vibrancy like you have suggested and maybe we all can learn of more instances.

I hate the lack of community at the UofC but appreciate the little pockets of congregation and the overall business attitude of institute, but they shouldn't be surprised students don't rally to establish a strong communal voice since it's easy to see here that education in Canada isn't very well funded like our health-care.

Here's a question for you, since I am a fellow UofC student...

What are you willing to do to inspire me? I already am interested in seeing many parts of the world due to the rich cultural exchanges that have occurred between me and other calgarians which have piqued my interest substantially. I know that calgary will never have an amphitheatre, but we have Atp, the loose moose et al, we don't have the house of blues but we have the shamrock, we don't have shakespeare days but we have bill in the park, we don't have cannes but we have $100 FF. We don't have the best festivals but we do have the stampede.

It's all a matter of perception. Dude, you get what you give and don't let a couple of arseholes with an internet connection crap in your cornflakes.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Our government deliberately tries to bring in the most uneducated and poorest first. It's a nice idea, but they're the ones that do, to some extent, pose a potential risk. It's because they're wanted to fill jobs nobody else will do. Or at least that's the only reason I can think of.

I know that fairly well-off, educated people have to fulfill various pretty strong criteria before being considered, certainly the case for a Morocccan acquaintance of mine and his family, while we will seemingly let any random Afghani from a village somewhere in, no hassle.

I've never tried to get into Canada so I can't speak from my own experience, but I know people (white, university educated with a couple of yrs of professional experience in their field) who were denied Canadian working visa. Yet you hear about illiterate peasants from Vietnam and what not effortlessly cruising in. I mean who am I to judge, you let in whoever you want, but it just seems really weird.

As for multiculturalism. Some "cultural elements" such as ethnic/national cuisine I'm fine with. More fajitas and teriyaki chicken please. What bothers me when immigrants have very little respect for the "house rules" so to speak. Bringing your own culture over is fine, but I draw the line when immigrants bring cultural elements that effed up their own country so bad they had to leave in the first place...

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

maybe it's my own fault that my posts have been this misconstrued.

I love the Canadian outdoors. I love Vancouver Island. I haven't hiked the West Coast Trail yet, but I intend to.

I'm sorry if my posts suggested anything to the contrary. I don't know how many times I have to say that I LOVE Canada and like it MUCH more than anywhere else I've been. I simply dislike my generation's apathy. That's really what the very first post that started all of this was about. I noted that the youth culture there was more vibrant than it was here. I truly do believe that.

That does not indicate, in any way, that I am disparaging anything about Canada except for this sense of apathy and disengagement.

Last summer, instead of buying a ticket to Amman, I went to explore the Maritime provinces. This summer I am driving to Toronto and doing a full-scale tour of Ontario, if everything goes well. The summer after that I will probably tour more of the West Coast.

I much prefer North America to Europe and the Middle East. Period. End of. However, there are things North America doesn't have that I think areas of Europe and areas of the Middle East do. And it is a different culture, not necessarily a superior one. I never said Canada had no culture, and I never said it had an inferior culture.

I just said it was sad that more young Canadians were not actively engaged in the cultural scene here.

That's not to take away from the stunning beauty of this country or the awesomeness of the people or the nature of life here. It's just to say that sometimes you can't get the sort of thing other parts of the world offer here. Which is frustrating sometimes, when you really yearn for that sort of vibrancy and excitement.

So, no, I never said anything of a 'lack of culture' in Canada. I said everything of a lack of cultural engagement from my generation in Canada. I'm sorry you took my posts the wrong way (and it probably is my fault), I really am.

Fair enough. I definitely agree with the bolded part.