Has the USA finally had enough of Israel's foot dragging and obstruction?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by blankall

As long as their are terrorists, terrorists will continue to attack the West.

Terrorists don't just pop up out of nowhere for the fun of it, they tend to have their roots and reasons. Most terrorists tend to be young angry men reacting to the actions of others, justified or not. Feeding into a system that allows these men to keep getting angry is what perpetuates the cycle, and I think that's what we are doing. While it's the right think to fight terrorism straight on, it's also prudent to ensure the minimization of new recruits. Letting Israel play by a different set of rules ensures that angry young men keep wanting pay back.

There's no easy answer here, but I really don't think letting Israel do what they do without any consequences is helping matters. Whether we like it or not, their actions are feeding the machine of hate creation. I'm not advocating ignoring the entire situation of the middle least, I'm just not convinced our constant bending over for one country is really that productive.

[sa226]

Originally Posted by blankall

As long as their are terrorists, terrorists will continue to attack the West.

If terrorism defeated Israel, it would only embolden the groups not appease them.

I also disagree with you as to whether peace is attainable. It most certainly is. The politics in that region are constantly changing. 50 years ago Lebanon and Iran were Israel's strongest allies. The US did not support Israel as they saw it as a socialist state.

People are always pointing to the fact there has always been war in that region and using Roman conquest or the crusades as examples. However, just about any region in the world has a similar history of conflict.

I guess that statement is a little short sighted. I was just referring the ultimatum set by certain terrorist groups that as long as the west occupies afghanistan, Iraq and supports Israel, western interests will always be targeted.

I still disagree with your second point. I like the optimism and it will take that kind of focus to keep in the region somewhat "stable"

The pursuit of peace has very little do do with politics, it runs much deeper. It has everything do do with the Jews and Arabs and their dual presence in the Holy Land. Yes their have been other regions with long histories of conflict, but nothing quite this.

The conflict can be traced all the way back to 700-500 BC, probably earlier. The persecution of the Jews has been a constant for centuries and continues today in different forms, and I believe it started somewhere around that period in time with the first exile of Jews from Jerusalem, and they have been dispersed ever since.

As well the slow return of the Jews to the homeland in the form of the Balfour declaration and UN partition plan, and the Arabs refusal to recognize the Jews claim to the land is the crux of the matter.

As long as the Arabs continue to believe that the Jews have no business anywhere in that region, and the Jews continue to remain, there will be no peace.

It runs much deeper than politics and treaties.

By the way, it is obvious I am no expert on the middle east, some things I may have wrong, but the root of the instability I think is most important.

[CaptainCrunch]

I agree with both sides here. But I disagree as well.

I think its truly irrelevant if a peace deal ever gets hammered out over there as long as the lunatic fringes in Hammas and Hezbollah continue to function and have influence in the region. to them peace treaty is another word for period of rest and re-armament. Simply put a stable peace treaty will never occur over there, it will last as long as it takes for Iran or Syria to re-arm these groups.

Palestine represents a brilliant political lever for the radicalized nations over there, they like Palestinians to remain poor, poorly educated and hungry. Hamas and Hezbollah like it even better because it creates a fertile incubator for political and religious based hatred.

Anyone that thinks that the American's walking away from the Israeli's would create a better negotiating position is a bit naive. Israel has been a nation on war footing since their inception, they've been attacked by their neighbors, they've been attacked by terrorist groups, the only thing that would happen if the American's ended their support would be an increase in security, a relaxation in their rules of engagement and probably a more aggressive stance against their neighbours and these nutbar groups in their defense policies.

I've noticed in this thread that nobody has mentioned that America needs to find a way to take a harder stance against Israel's neighbours both state wise and political wise.

Israel will continue to put their national security and self interests ahead of the peace process until nations like Iran and others end their support for radical groups operating in the region, recognize Israel's right to exist and find a way to reduce tensions.

America needs to operate the levers of politics against Israel, but they also need to work towards finding a peaceful solution on both sides that ensures long term security for Israel.

Frankly right now as we've seen just as we castigate Israel for its actions, we should also be talking about the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah other groups and countries around Israel are as untrustworthy when it comes to treaty obligations or cease fire obligations.

Lets be honest here, there's plenty of blame to go to all sides.

And America pulling support for Israel would be incredibly ######ed and would cause a even more unstable situation over there.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Terrorists don't just pop up out of nowhere for the fun of it, they tend to have their roots and reasons. Most terrorists tend to be young angry men reacting to the actions of others, justified or not. Feeding into a system that allows these men to keep getting angry is what perpetuates the cycle, and I think that's what we are doing. While it's the right think to fight terrorism straight on, it's also prudent to ensure the minimization of new recruits. Letting Israel play by a different set of rules ensures that angry young men keep wanting pay back.

I don't really see how Israel is playing by a different set of rules... but sure.

Originally Posted by Table 5

There's no easy answer here, but I really don't think letting Israel do what they do without any consequences is helping matters. Whether we like it or not, their actions are feeding the machine of hate creation. I'm not advocating ignoring the entire situation of the middle least, I'm just not convinced our constant bending over for one country is really that productive.

Israel does not get to do whatever it wants. As disastrous as Gaza and other conflicts have been, they are very restrained when compared to what goes on in the rest of the world.

I also don't see how everyone is constantly bending over for Israel. Israel is probably the most criticized nation in the world.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Frankly right now as we've seen just as we castigate Israel for its actions, we should also be talking about the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah other groups and countries around Israel are as untrustworthy when it comes to treaty obligations or cease fire obligations.

I don't think that's been mentioned because that's a given. I find both sides to be untrustworthy and guilty....wanting Israel to be accountable does not mean I find the other side in the right.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by blankall

I don't really see how Israel is playing by a different set of rules... but sure.
\

You really don't think having America and the west in your corner no matter what you do is a different set of rules? It's like getting into a fight with a guy who invites his 300 pound MMA fighter brother to watch.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I agree with both sides here. But I disagree as well.

I think its truly irrelevant if a peace deal ever gets hammered out over there as long as the lunatic fringes in Hammas and Hezbollah continue to function and have influence in the region. to them peace treaty is another word for period of rest and re-armament. Simply put a stable peace treaty will never occur over there, it will last as long as it takes for Iran or Syria to re-arm these groups.

Palestine represents a brilliant political lever for the radicalized nations over there, they like Palestinians to remain poor, poorly educated and hungry. Hamas and Hezbollah like it even better because it creates a fertile incubator for political and religious based hatred.

Anyone that thinks that the American's walking away from the Israeli's would create a better negotiating position is a bit naive. Israel has been a nation on war footing since their inception, they've been attacked by their neighbors, they've been attacked by terrorist groups, the only thing that would happen if the American's ended their support would be an increase in security, a relaxation in their rules of engagement and probably a more aggressive stance against their neighbours and these nutbar groups in their defense policies.

I've noticed in this thread that nobody has mentioned that America needs to find a way to take a harder stance against Israel's neighbours both state wise and political wise.

Israel will continue to put their national security and self interests ahead of the peace process until nations like Iran and others end their support for radical groups operating in the region, recognize Israel's right to exist and find a way to reduce tensions.

America needs to operate the levers of politics against Israel, but they also need to work towards finding a peaceful solution on both sides that ensures long term security for Israel.

Frankly right now as we've seen just as we castigate Israel for its actions, we should also be talking about the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah other groups and countries around Israel are as untrustworthy when it comes to treaty obligations or cease fire obligations.

Lets be honest here, there's plenty of blame to go to all sides.

And America pulling support for Israel would be incredibly ######ed and would cause a even more unstable situation over there.

I ran out of thanks...I think you have said what I was trying to say, only much better.

[_Q_]

I don't think Arabs believe that Jews have no business in the region, but rather having their own independent state on land that used to be majority Arab. Also to many Arabs Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity and therefore does not deserve it's own independent nation. It has nothing to do with pre-WW2 Germany style antisemitism. Jews lived fairly peacefully amongst Muslims and Christians for centuries before the creation of the State of Israel. There are still many Jewish communities living in North Africa and the Middle East at relative peace with their Muslim and Christian neighbours.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Table 5

You really don't think having America and the west in your corner no matter what you do is a different set of rules? It's like getting into a fight with a guy who invites his 300 pound MMA fighter brother to watch.

America isn't in Israel's corner no matter what. Israel gets lets condemnation from America because they usually cooperate with America. They also have similar ideals. Do you really think America is going to support a state that promotes suicide bombs over a democracy? What president could sell that to the American electorate?

Israel is also one of the few nations in the world that has gone to war for America. When Egypt shut down the Suez canal in the 1950s Israel went to war for America.

During the cold war the Palestinians chose to ally themselves with the USSR. That didn't work out so well.

Israel has been smart diplomatically. It's not unfair or a different set of rules.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I ran out of thanks...I think you have said what I was trying to say, only much better.

I usually agree with what you have to say, but you do tend to be a bit over-zealous in how you go about it =-o

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't think Arabs believe that Jews have no business in the region, but rather having their own independent state on land that used to be majority Arab. Also to many Arabs Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity and therefore does not deserve it's own independent nation. It has nothing to do with pre-WW2 Germany style antisemitism. Jews lived fairly peacefully amongst Muslims and Christians for centuries before the creation of the State of Israel. There are still many Jewish communities living in North Africa and the Middle East at relative peace with their Muslim and Christian neighbours.

Certainly there were some peaceful areas, but Anti-Semitism was pretty widespread in the region. Including many governments that threw in with the Nazi's.

In Yemin they passed a law in 1922 that Jewish orphans were to be force converted to Islam.

In 1947 in Yemen Muslims rioted with the help of police and killed 87 jews in a day and looted and destroyed businesses.

In one day in November 1945 I think in Libya nearly 200 jews were slaughtered and their businesses and synagogues were looted.

Look at actions of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni and his remarks on Radio Berlin in 1944

Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you

Its great to theorize that the creation of Israel caused all of this mess and all of this anger and hatred, but that hatred and anger was in place long before the UN drew Israel on the map.

The creation of Israel created a justification of anti-jewish actions and the multiple attacks on Israel, but the Arab anti Jewish sentiments go further back then that. Israel is an excuse to hate, nothing more.

[Azure]

Isn't it hilarious how the US is making so many big words about this when Iran has been basically telling Obama and team to go screw themselves for the longest time now?

Why should Israel give a crap what the US says when they can't even back up their words on different issues?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't think Arabs believe that Jews have no business in the region, but rather having their own independent state on land that used to be majority Arab. Also to many Arabs Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity and therefore does not deserve it's own independent nation. It has nothing to do with pre-WW2 Germany style antisemitism. Jews lived fairly peacefully amongst Muslims and Christians for centuries before the creation of the State of Israel. There are still many Jewish communities living in North Africa and the Middle East at relative peace with their Muslim and Christian neighbours.

Really?

If by "fairly peacefully" you mean they were persecute for centuries and treated as second class citizens with no rights then I would agree.

As for these large communities in North Africa, where are these? There are a few small enclaves, but all the countries in North Africa have absolutely decimated their Jewish populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...rom_Arab_lands

The greatest Jewish population in North Africa is in Morocco where 5-7k remain. At one time a quarter of a million Jews lived in Morocco. Please show me any evidence whatsoever of these Jewish, Christian, and Muslim communities living side by side in perfect peace.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

...... the nations who have done the most for the average Palestinian is the Israeli's .......

Say what???

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Anthony Soprano

13 out of 100 Senators in the USA are Jewish

A record 45 Jews currently serve in Congress.

45 out of 541 Congressmen are Jewish.

That's 13% of the Senate
8.4% of the House of Representatives

1.7% of people in the USA are Jewish.

speaking as someone with Palestinian heritage (which does not translate to Muslim, dear couple of posters in this thread, despite that being a convenient generalization for your argument), I see nothing more reflected in these numbers than the reality that the Jews have made themselves a remarkable presence despite making up a tiny percentage of the world's population.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

speaking as someone with Palestinian heritage (which does not translate to Muslim, dear couple of posters in this thread, despite that being a convenient generalization for your argument), I see nothing more reflected in these numbers than the reality that the Jews have made themselves a remarkable presence despite making up a tiny percentage of the world's population.

I know this is a generalization, but Jewish culture puts a lot of emphasis on eduation. A big part of the religion involves studying the Torah in Hebrew and debating very complex subjects in it. Learning those skills at a young age makes politics a natural field to get into for many.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I know this is a generalization, but Jewish culture puts a lot of emphasis on eduation. A big part of the religion involves studying the Torah in Hebrew and debating very complex subjects in it. Learning those skills at a young age makes politics a natural field to get into for many.

oh, certainly.

The culture and tradition of the Jewish people is one that values the intellectual. No wonder so many Jews become prominent public intellectuals.

The culture of 'my people' once valued the intellectual as well, but the Wahhabist morons ruined that.

There has been an upswing recently in Arab intellectual thought and a renaissance in both popularity and artistic quality of secular Arab literature. It is a wonderful counter to the Islamism and Christian fundamentalism that has scarred Arabia for so long. I think that if this intellectual tide continues rising, it might be the only hope we have for solving the giant cluster**** that is the middle east and North Africa.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Anthony Soprano

13 out of 100 Senators in the USA are Jewish

A record 45 Jews currently serve in Congress.

45 out of 541 Congressmen are Jewish.

That's 13% of the Senate
8.4% of the House of Representatives

1.7% of people in the USA are Jewish.

An obvious conspiracy. How dare they....
1. Get educated
2. Be successful
3. Care about democracy to be involved in it.

Just remember they have to be elected...even by non-JOOOOOSSS

Sorry if this sorry post was responded to already.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Say what???

So you tell me what would happen had there been a minority population in Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq or Saudi Arabia bombing the majority or launching rockets. They would already have been extinct. They are still around in Israel because the Israeli's believe their desire to live is greater than their desire to die. In other words, provide work opportunities, medical care, education and the freedom of democracy and speech and they eventually will crave the same as the Israelis. In case you did not know, it was not until recently (actually, this is getting to be old) that the borders to Israel were closed. By letting the Palestinians into Israel from the occupied territories they would be introduced to these freedoms and they hoped would change what they wanted out of life. Hammas and the other groups have done away with that now through a series of suicide bombings. Keep in mind no other nation lets these people into their towns, including Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan. The only nation that tried has been Israel.
I doubt you know much of anything of that region, but I will ask you this question: Had Israel never came to be, would the Palestinians be governing that land or some other group?
Besides, I thought you were avoiding me?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Terrorists don't just pop up out of nowhere for the fun of it, they tend to have their roots and reasons. Most terrorists tend to be young angry men reacting to the actions of others, justified or not. Feeding into a system that allows these men to keep getting angry is what perpetuates the cycle, and I think that's what we are doing. While it's the right think to fight terrorism straight on, it's also prudent to ensure the minimization of new recruits. Letting Israel play by a different set of rules ensures that angry young men keep wanting pay back.

There's no easy answer here, but I really don't think letting Israel do what they do without any consequences is helping matters. Whether we like it or not, their actions are feeding the machine of hate creation. I'm not advocating ignoring the entire situation of the middle least, I'm just not convinced our constant bending over for one country is really that productive.

So what was Jihad Jane's problem and roots? I am thinking F.I.T.H.

If the Israelis didn't give the Palestinians a cause they'd make one up. Ex: The Last Intifada.