Tony Kornheiser Suspended From ESPN For Hannah Storm Wardrobe Remarks

[flip]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Dude, are you missing the part about her 'shirt being tight'?? It isn't that he blasted her wardrobe he attacked her in a sexual manner. Does he accuse Wilbon of wearing tight pants to accentuate his junk? THAT would be sexual harassment.

If you can't see the difference I don't know what else can be said!

No, you are missing the point. Harassment is harassment. You are again applying a double standard because any comment about a woman is automatically sexual harassment. This has nothing to do with the shirt being tight comment and ESPN even said so.

Saying I'm missing the point is just a cop out. You aren't addressing the fact that a comment about a woman is sexual harassment. A comment about a man is not.

A comment about a fellow employees dress is inappropriate in no scenario or all scenarios.

Your application of sexual harassment is so deeply seeded in a predisposed manner that you can't even see that you are blatantly applying a double standard.

I guess my comments are falling on deaf ears. You have your beliefs that only women can be subject to sexual harassment.

If you can't see that there is no difference then I don't know what else can be said!

If Kornheiser said that another man's outfit was too tight you obviously wouldn't care. That is a double standard.

And Jiri, your application of a double standard is doubly obvious. You even pointed out that it was an issue about protecting fellow employees and that Kornheiser's comments about Chris Berman were at issue as well, so I'm not sure how you can possibly defend any position that includes sexual harassment because you have already said you didn't think it was about that. Pick a side. Either it is sexual harassment or it isn't.

If ESPN is protecting their employees, fine, but apply it evenly. I don't think they are at all, and neither are you guys. It is ok for Kornheiser to talk smack about men but not about women.

DFF you are the only one saying this is sexual harassment, every news story I've read says this is about protecting employee harassment. And like I've pointed out it appears ESPN only cares about harassment between male and female employees, not male and male employees.

Furthermore, how is sexual harassment somehow less important that just general harassment? It isn't. Cutting down a man is no different than cutting down a woman. Well not to me anyways. You guys seem to think there is a difference.

Here is ESPN's official remarks on the incident:

“Tony Kornheiser’s comments about Hannah Storm were entirely inappropriate. Hurtful and personal comments such as these are not acceptable and have significant consequences. Tony has been suspended from PTI for two weeks. Hannah is a respected colleague who has been an integral part of the success of our morning SportsCenter.”

You and ESPN seem to agree that hurtful comments about a man's attire are ok, but about a woman are not. His comments weren't sexual in nature. He thought she looked like an idiot. Just how he might say a guy in a certain suit looked like an idiot. If Wilbon showed up (or any other ESPN male employee) wearing clothing not appropriate for their age group (which is what Kornheiser said about Storm) and said they looked like an idiot you think it is ok. ESPN agrees.

I think it is despicable that we assume that any comment about a woman is "sexual" and that a comment about a man is not.

[HOOT]

Oh wow this turned ugly...

[flip]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Oh wow this turned ugly...

Well, some of us believe men and women should be treated equally....

[flip]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I locked that thread because it was a crappy thread.

I would suggest though that you don't bring up my actions as a mod on this site - it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Fart - I can't believe you even wasted your time to track down something as silly as that.

It only took a minute and I was only trying to justify my implication that you didn't watch the show. No need to take it so personal.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by flip

A comment about a fellow employees dress is inappropriate in no scenario or all scenarios.

Just because you declare it doesn't mean it's true. There is really no possible inappropriate comments about attire/appearance?

Originally Posted by flip

Your application of sexual harassment is so deeply seeded in a predisposed manner that you can't even see that you are blatantly applying a double standard.

Personal attack.

Originally Posted by flip

I guess my comments are falling on deaf ears. You have your beliefs that only women can be subject to sexual harassment.

Victim card.

Originally Posted by flip

I'm not saying that harassment is ok, I'm saying absurd and offensive double standards are not. Well, ok I'm saying harassment is ok as long as it is applied equally by the employer. ESPN are a bunch of hypocrites for defending a woman but not the men.

Strawman. Who is suggesting that it's ok for ESPN to have double standards?

Originally Posted by flip

You know that ABC (I think) basketball guy that wears those horrible suits with the like yellow plaid pants? Craig Sager is his name. Google him and you should recognize who I mean if you watch a fair amount of sports.

That guy dresses TERRIBLE and frequently gets ripped on air by his fellow employees for dressing like a moron. To date no one has filed a sexual harrassment suit, nor have they been suspended.

Why not? Based on your post you should be against ANY harassment, by men or women, on men or women. Unless you only think men can't say things about women which makes you no better than Kornheiser.

I love Sager. It's one thing to talk about loud pants and orange shoes, it's another to talk about how corduroy makes his bulge look huge.
You can't tell the difference?

[flip]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Just because you declare it doesn't mean it's true. There is really no possible inappropriate comments about attire/appearance?



Personal attack.



Victim card.



Strawman. Who is suggesting that it's ok for ESPN to have double standards?




I love Sager. It's one thing to talk about loud pants and orange shoes, it's another to talk about how corduroy makes his bulge look huge.
You can't tell the difference?

Uhhh, what?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by flip

No, you are missing the point. Harassment is harassment. You are again applying a double standard because any comment about a woman is automatically sexual harassment. This has nothing to do with the shirt being tight comment and ESPN even said so.

Saying I'm missing the point is just a cop out. You aren't addressing the fact that a comment about a woman is sexual harassment. A comment about a man is not.

What are you talking about? It's based entirely on what was said and not who it was said to. Kornheiser would be in just as much crap if he said 'Hey Wilbon, your pants are so tight I can see your tic-tac sized .'

His comment was a direct shot at how her shirt made her breasts look. Any comment made about a woman is not sexual harassment. I don't know where you get that idea from. When you directly or indirectly invoke someone's genitals in your blast, it turns into sexual harassment. Pretty basic, IMO.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by moon

100% stupid move by ESPN.

Kornheiser did nothing wrong except for not pointing out the fact that Storm has done nothing to earn her position other than having a pair of tits.

The comment was funny and correct and not close to warranting a suspension.

I know that ESPN has historically overreacted to these type of things in the past but it is unfortunate that they took this stand in this situation.

Hopefully, Kornheiser comes back and doesn't change at all because he did nothing wrong in this situation.

Speaking of completely offensive statements....are you freaking serious?

This women has accomplished more in the sports broadcasting world than anybody else in its history.

I would REALLY like to know what your criteria are for who has "earned" their position vs those that have not.

Good grief that is just a brutal statement.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by moon

Kornheiser did nothing wrong except for not pointing out the fact that Storm has done nothing to earn her position other than having a pair of tits.

Classy.

[flip]

Originally Posted by rubecube

What are you talking about? It's based entirely on what was said and not who it was said to. Kornheiser would be in just as much crap if he said 'Hey Wilbon, your pants are so tight I can see your tic-tac sized .'

His comment was a direct shot at how her shirt made her breasts look. Any comment made about a woman is not sexual harassment. I don't know where you get that idea from. When you directly or indirectly invoke someone's genitals in your blast, it turns into sexual harassment. Pretty basic, IMO.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that on a male dominated message board there are some pretty antiquated ideas about what equality is.

If what Kornheiser said to Storm is harassment, then him calling Berman a fat blimp is also harassment. I think it is kind of sad that we live in a society where that type of harassment is acceptable towards a man and not a woman.

I can't forcibly reprogram your ideas of equality. When a man takes a shot at a woman's clothing it should be taken just as seriously as a comment about a man's body.

This isn't about whether or not what Kornheiser said to Storm is offensive. It is that you can't get past your own biases and predisposed notions about equality between men and women that you can't realize that his comments towards Berman were just as offensive.

I can only assume that you believe it is ok for a male employee to verbally harass another male employee but that he can't verbally harass a female employee. Why? Because you think the man can take it and the woman is to sensitive to handle some ribbing?


For anyone not familiar, Kornheiser said this on his radio show, where he keeps a TV on ALL the time so that he can cuss out people on TV (he's like a male Joan Rivers). He is known to frequently make fun of people's clothes, including on MANY occasions, Hannah Storm. Here is exactly what he said:

Hannah Storm in a horrifying, horrifying outfit today. She's got on red go-go boots and a catholic school plaid skirt. Way too short for somebody in her 40s or maybe early 50s by now. And she's got on her typically very, very tight shirt. So she looks like she's got sausage casing wrapping around her upper body... I know she's very good, and I'm not supposed to be critical of ESPN people..But, Hannah Storm, come on now!

Clearly not acceptable right?

Well, apparently this is acceptable though: (about fellow ESPN employee Chris Berman)

"I know I'm not supposed to be critical of ESPN people, like if I point out that people say that they lost 50 or 60 pounds have actually gained all the weight back..." (Co-host interrupts: "And then some. Gained the weight back, back, back, back.")

Making fun of a woman's clothes: not ok. Making fun of a man's struggle with his weight: ok.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by flip

It only took a minute and I was only trying to justify my implication that you didn't watch the show. No need to take it so personal.

I said I watched the show. That should be enough. I don't lie on this site. There was simply no need to go back and find some thread that I locked because the OP didn't provide enough meat to merit discussion.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by flip

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that on a male dominated message board there are some pretty antiquated ideas about what equality is.

If what Kornheiser said to Storm is harassment, then him calling Berman a fat blimp is also harassment. I think it is kind of sad that we live in a society where that type of harassment is acceptable towards a man and not a woman.

I can't forcibly reprogram your ideas of equality. When a man takes a shot at a woman's clothing it should be taken just as seriously as a comment about a man's body.

This isn't about whether or not what Kornheiser said to Storm is offensive. It is that you can't get past your own biases and predisposed notions about equality between men and women that you can't realize that his comments towards Berman were just as offensive.

I can only assume that you believe it is ok for a male employee to verbally harass another male employee but that he can't verbally harass a female employee. Why? Because you think the man can take it and the woman is to sensitive to handle some ribbing?


For anyone not familiar, Kornheiser said this on his radio show, where he keeps a TV on ALL the time so that he can cuss out people on TV (he's like a male Joan Rivers). He is known to frequently make fun of people's clothes, including on MANY occasions, Hannah Storm. Here is exactly what he said:



Clearly not acceptable right?

Well, apparently this is acceptable though: (about fellow ESPN employee Chris Berman)


Making fun of a woman's clothes: not ok. Making fun of a man's struggle with his weight: ok.

So is your argument that the suspension is not correct, or is it that he should have also been suspended for his comments about Berman.

Frankly I don't think his comments about Berman were appropriate. They were also rude, unprofessional and ignorant.

[flip]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I said I watched the show. That should be enough. I don't lie on this site. Locking some stupid thread doesn't prove anything.

Listen Jiri, I'm not sure why this is such a contentious issue. BEFORE you said you watched the show, I made a comment that you must not watch the show based on the fact you locked a thread because you didn't appear to know who stat boy was and what PTI was.

Apparently you watch the show. Fine. No one ever called you a liar. Please, just take it down a notch. I don't know what about my post has caused you to become this defensive but it wasn't my intention. I just feel that I should back up random claims I make.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by flip

Listen Jiri, I'm not sure why this is such a contentious issue. BEFORE you said you watched the show, I made a comment that you must not watch the show based on the fact you locked a thread because you didn't appear to know who stat boy was and what PTI was.

Apparently you watch the show. Fine. No one ever called you a liar. Please, just take it down a notch. I don't know what about my post has caused you to become this defensive but it wasn't my intention. I just feel that I should back up random claims I make.

It comes down to the fact that when people disagree with you - you shouldn't assume that its because they know nothing about the topic at hand. Perhaps they just have a different opinion.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by flip

Listen Jiri, I'm not sure why this is such a contentious issue. BEFORE you said you watched the show, I made a comment that you must not watch the show based on the fact you locked a thread because you didn't appear to know who stat boy was and what PTI was.

Apparently you watch the show. Fine. No one ever called you a liar. Please, just take it down a notch. I don't know what about my post has caused you to become this defensive but it wasn't my intention. I just feel that I should back up random claims I make.

Maybe you shouldn't make "random" claims?

just a suggestion.

[flip]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

So is your argument that the suspension is not correct, or is it that he should have also been suspended for his comments about Berman.

Frankly I don't think his comments about Berman were appropriate. They were also rude, unprofessional and ignorant.

There are 2 issues here for me.

First off, I don't find what Kornheiser found offensive at all. He says stuff like that ALL the time. And I'm serious. Like every single day. To varying degrees of offensiveness, and this one may have been about a fellow employee so I kind of get it.

But no, I was not personally offended that he said that. I think anyone who regularly watches or listens to Tony, and likes him, would know that he doesn't say things like that because he's a bad person. This isn't Rush Limbaugh or Glen Beck we're talking about here. Kornheiser is never not being sarcastic and crass.

Nor do I find his Berman comments particularly offensive, in the context of who said them and why.

What I do find offensive is the suggestion by other posters that it is ok for a male employee to harass another male employee but not a female. Saying it is sexual is totally and completely irrelevant. All workplace harassment should be treated with the same level of respect. The fact that people seem to think harassing a man isn't a big deal, but harassing a woman is suspension worthy is a truly scary idea to me. Employers are under a very serious obligation to treat men and women equally and with respect. A man calling another employee stupid, fat or an idiot is just as serious as him making inappropriate comments about their attire, regardless of the gender of the employee he is attacking.

While, I do believe that disparaging comments about fellow employees are very serious, I believe that Tony has likely said offensive things about fellow employees literally dozens and dozens of times.

Once again, slippery slope, but when we think about who said them and why, they aren't meant with any real malicious intent. THat being said, I can understand why ESPN did what they did, but that doesn't mean I was offended by it or that I agree with it.


What I totally disagree with is the sentiment that a male employee (I'm talking generally now, not just about Kornheiser) can say highly offensive things about a male but not about a female.

Look at it this way.

Should ESPN have suspended Tony for his comments about Hannah? Sure, just in case she actually files a lawsuit it could be very dangerous if they appear to support harassment of employees, even if it is done by an on air personality, because it could (not bloody likely but it could) conceivably appear to be accepted behind closed doors too, which would be disastrous and a lawsuit waiting to happen.

If he gets suspended for the Storm comments, should he have been suspended like 20 times before for harassment comments? Absolutely. If ESPN is suggesting that this was because of a build up, or that this was sort of the last straw, I don't buy it. Harassment, should be taken VERY seriously by an employer. My problem is that they seemingly didn't take it seriously at all until now.

[flip]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Maybe you shouldn't make "random" claims?

just a suggestion.

This is between me and Jiri but if you feel you need to chime in that is fine.

It wasn't so much of a random claim as it was a claim without evidence. I wanted to make sure there was evidence for my claim.

You know about providing evidence to back up arguments right? You know, like if you were to claim that you knew that Kevin Lowe was part of a conspiracy against the Flames....

[flip]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

It comes down to the fact that when people disagree with you - you shouldn't assume that its because they know nothing about the topic at hand. Perhaps they just have a different opinion.

I didn't assume you knew nothing about it. I made an educated guess that you didn't based on a post (albeit like 2 years old) that you made.

If I thought you didn't know what you were talking about I would have said "Jiri, you have no idea what you are talking about."

Jiri, you've been online long enough you should know that when you say something on the board it is fair game for other posters to bring up when a different topic comes up. If there was a thread about Star Trek I don't think Yeah Baby would be offended if I brought up his name, nor do I get offended when people say I like NIN. Obviously, what we write on this board isn't written in stone but that doesn't make it wrong for a poster to base his thoughts on precedent that has been set. It isn't like I'm telling you what you know. I just pointed out that I thought you didn't watch that show and why I thought that. You posted otherwise. I'm not sure what the issue is for you here. It isn't like anyone tried to tell you that you were lying.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by flip

This is between me and Jiri but if you feel you need to chime in that is fine.

It wasn't so much of a random claim as it was a claim without evidence. I wanted to make sure there was evidence for my claim.

You know about providing evidence to back up arguments right? You know, like if you were to claim that you knew that Kevin Lowe was part of a conspiracy against the Flames....

I see...you use the word random, i suggest its not likely a good idea, and now you turn this into some other nonsensical claim?

Good on ya.

As for the bolded part...it was and is my OPINION (not something i could "claim" as it would be impossible to prove to you) based on what transpired, what i know about the situation and where we sit even to this day on it.

[flip]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I see...you use the word random, i suggest its not likely a good idea, and now you turn this into some other nonsensical claim?

Good on ya.

As for the bolded part...it was and is my OPINION (not something i could "claim" as it would be impossible to prove to you) based on what transpired, what i know about the situation and where we sit even to this day on it.

So let me get this straight. I made a post where I used the word random, instead of the word unsubstantiated. I meant that I didn't want to make any unsubstantiated claims about Jiri.

That is somehow nonsensical?

Let me spell it out for you.

It was my opinion that based on what transpired I thought Jiri didn't watch PTI. I made that opinion clear. He said I was mistaken.

You have a hard time understanding that?