Luge athlete killed in Whistler during training

[twotoner]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Do you really think that the IOC, the FIL and all the other governing bodies would rather see more injuries than to simply move the event to another track?

I mean, it's not like they'd just cancel it. It would only be moved.

I don't think anyone wants to see more injuries and I don't think moving is an option either. If moving a venue was easy, they'd already have done this for cypress.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Really? Because the FIL is the one who said it was driver error and not the track. Regardless they still took extra precautions before reopening the track.

Seems to me that a lot of people just want to blame Vancouver. It's their fault it's raining and not snowing, it's their fault the luger died, it's their fault the cauldron didn't light, it's their fault there were protesters... Nothing they do is right.

Regardless of the fact that the track had all the approval it needed.

Like I said, should just make it a tunnel, eh? Then it'll never happen again.

Ah yes, the FIL made a comprehensive investigation in a matter of hours and absolved themselves of blame. That sounds completely legitimate . If an investigation that takes more than an afternoon finds the same thing maybe I'd accept it, but forgive me for not giving a lot of credit to such a rushed investigation.

And this has nothing to do with blaming Vancouver. How does critique of the planning and foresight of track designers turn into blaming Vancouver? Did the citizens get a say on track design and safety implementation?

Your tunnel argument is typical of someone who can't actually argue their point. Just jump to some extreme end point and act as if that's the only other option. As I said previously, I watched footage of 2 athletes slam into the upper portion of that same wall yesterday. Crashes in that location are not shockingly uncommon, and in two other instances in the last 48 hours an athlete was airborne through that area. An area with a low wall backed by steel poles.

As I said previously (thanks for not addressing my points by the way, nice work), over or under steering into and out of turns is not uncommon in sliding sports. It happens in every race, it's the difference between medal contenders and the rest of the field. Such common mistakes should never expose and athlete to something like what happened yesterday. There's a big difference between slamming into a wall and back onto the track and flying into steel poles, and it doesn't take a tunnel to prevent it.

[Resolute 14]

FIL's response is the classic "don't sue me! It wasn't my fault!" defence.

Like with the silliness in the other thread about this man's death being a black mark on Canada, it isn't a black mark on Vancouver either. It is a black mark on the games, one that is the result of negligence on the part of the track designer and those who approved it, including FIL.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ah yes, the FIL made a comprehensive investigation in a matter of hours and absolved themselves of blame. That sounds completely legitimate . If an investigation that takes more than an afternoon finds the same thing maybe I'd accept it, but forgive me for not giving a lot of credit to such a rushed investigation.

And this has nothing to do with blaming Vancouver. How does critique of the planning and foresight of track designers turn into blaming Vancouver? Did the citizens get a say on track design and safety implementation?

Your tunnel argument is typical of someone who can't actually argue their point. Just jump to some extreme end point and act as if that's the only other option. As I said previously, I watched footage of 2 athletes slam into the upper portion of that same wall yesterday. Crashes in that location are not shockingly uncommon, and in two other instances in the last 48 hours an athlete was airborne through that area. An area with a low wall backed by steel poles.

As I said previously (thanks for not addressing my points by the way, nice work), over or under steering into and out of turns is not uncommon in sliding sports. It happens in every race, it's the difference between medal contenders and the rest of the field. Such common mistakes should never expose and athlete to something like what happened yesterday. There's a big difference between slamming into a wall and back onto the track and flying into steel poles, and it doesn't take a tunnel to prevent it.

Actually, I did address your point. And anyone who watches the video can see the driver loses control WELL in advance of finally flying over the edge. In fact, he hits the other wall first. You'd think that would stop him from bouncing back even higher, but for some reason, it doesn't. Gross driver error.

But then who are we all to place blame? Looks like you're waiting for an official of some sort to agree with you instead of oppose you. Are the men out there doing training again today? Because if they are, I'd say they also would oppose you. They are the ones who would know best, after all. How many times have they completed a safe run?

And AGAIN, they've increased the height of the wall there. I would say we'll find out if anyone hits that wall fairly high in the future if it was the fault of the engineers.

But since you say you've seen video of people airborne there... let's see it.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Actually, I did address your point. And anyone who watches the video can see the driver loses control WELL in advance of finally flying over the edge. In fact, he hits the other wall first. You'd think that would stop him from bouncing back even higher, but for some reason, it doesn't. Gross driver error.

But then who are we all to place blame? Looks like you're waiting for an official of some sort to agree with you instead of oppose you. Are the men out there doing training again today? Because if they are, I'd say they also would oppose you. They are the ones who would know best, after all. How many times have they completed a safe run?

And AGAIN, they've increased the height of the wall there. I would say we'll find out if anyone hits that wall fairly high in the future if it was the fault of the engineers.

But since you say you've seen video of people airborne there... let's see it.

You didn't address my points at all. You act as if this accident was completely unexpected, when in fact there have been at least two other athletes come within a matter of inches of suffering the same fate. You also pretend like overcompensating in turns is uncommon, go back to your first post and read what you said. Crashes due to over/under compensation are incredibly common, this wasn't a mistake that was completely unforeseeable. It wasn't a gross error, it was an error that occurs on every track every single day.

The video was part of NBC's coverage of the accident prior to the opening ceremonies. If you find yourself a proxy server I'm sure you can find it at nbcolympics.com.

BTW, why would I be waiting for an official to agree with me? That will never happen. Doing so would be an admission of guilt, one that would be fully admissible against them in any coming legal action.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by valo403

You didn't address my points at all. You act as if this accident was completely unexpected, when in fact there have been at least two other athletes come within a matter of inches of suffering the same fate. You also pretend like overcompensating in turns is uncommon, go back to your first post and read what you said. Crashes due to over/under compensation are incredibly common, this wasn't a mistake that was completely unforeseeable. It wasn't a gross error, it was an error that occurs on every track every single day.

Lol. I have never once said that the accident was 'completely unexpected'. What I have said is that tracks are designed such that the walls are higher where crashes are expected. Guy was halfway down a straightaway when he flew over the side. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's where it's expected to happen, right?

I also never pretended that overcompensating was uncommon, but to grossly overcompensate twice in a row is what led to this man's death. He was an Olympic athlete travelling at top speeds... How often do they grossly overcompensate twice in a row when trying to correct their line? Overcompensation is fine and does indeed happen quite often. Generally it doesn't result in flying out of the track or I'm sure we would hear about it more often, no? Or there would be more bone breaking injuries at least.

The video was part of NBC's coverage of the accident prior to the opening ceremonies. If you find yourself a proxy server I'm sure you can find it at nbcolympics.com.

Lol. But you saw it with two other athletes? Surely there must be somewhere a person could access that video more easily?

BTW, why would I be waiting for an official to agree with me? That will never happen. Doing so would be an admission of guilt, one that would be fully admissible against them in any coming legal action.

If not an official, someone well respected within the Luge community. Someone who knows something about track design. I don't think anyone has said anything about it yet. It's the fans who are in an uproar.

And I don't mean the athlete who said in an interview that he thought someone would die on the course. I'm pretty sure he didn't mean 'fly out of the track and die'. But again, you'd have to ask him that.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Lol. I have never once said that the accident was 'completely unexpected'. What I have said is that tracks are designed such that the walls are higher where crashes are expected. Guy was halfway down a straightaway when he flew over the side. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's where it's expected to happen, right?

I also never pretended that overcompensating was uncommon, but to grossly overcompensate twice in a row is what led to this man's death. He was an Olympic athlete travelling at top speeds... How often do they grossly overcompensate twice in a row when trying to correct their line? Overcompensation is fine and does indeed happen quite often. Generally it doesn't result in flying out of the track or I'm sure we would hear about it more often, no? Or there would be more bone breaking injuries at least.



Lol. But you saw it with two other athletes? Surely there must be somewhere a person could access that video more easily?



If not an official, someone well respected within the Luge community. Someone who knows something about track design. I don't think anyone has said anything about it yet. It's the fans who are in an uproar.

And I don't mean the athlete who said in an interview that he thought someone would die on the course. I'm pretty sure he didn't mean 'fly out of the track and die'. But again, you'd have to ask him that.

Christ, what's the point. You are honestly arguing that he was halfway down a straightaway when he flew off. If that's how your comprehension works I won't even bother. He flew off exiting 16, he was just past the end of the turn. Watch the video.

[Nage Waza]

I think what some of us are trying to point out is that the best racer in the world can make a mistake. That mistake likely shouldn't result in death. We understand the accidents happen, and we often hope they do, but we never thought in a million years that racer error could result in flying out of the 'arena' and nailing the support beams for the judge podium. A crash can happen and should happen, what shouldn't happen is athletes leaving the track. That is the gist of this argument.

Anyone who has done any software testing (or testing in general) tests for every scenario possible, until budget or time line constraints start holding the project back. This is likely where a good chunk of the investigation will go - did computer models pinpoint this situation and what was done about it? If the software did not identify this corner as being a problem then the programmers will be hard at work to understand why the computer let them down (although if I was them, I would have been investigating as soon as I heard about the death). I don't know what they use to model this type of track...I would imagine if it's physics model is linked at all to roller coaster design, those guys for sure are double checking as well. If it turns out no computer modeling was used at all in the track design, then I would imagine either someone is in a lot of trouble, or this sport is in drastic need of 'modernization'.

Either way, the sport is not meant to launch players out of the track due to racer error. Anyone who has every participated in any 'speed' sport knows anything can happen at any time. As an ex ski 'racer', I bailed a few times when a spot of snow was really ice. Thankfully there was no chairlift beam at the turn.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I think what some of us are trying to point out is that the best racer in the world can make a mistake. That mistake likely shouldn't result in death. We understand the accidents happen, and we often hope they do, but we never thought in a million years that racer error could result in flying out of the 'arena' and nailing the support beams for the judge podium. A crash can happen and should happen, what shouldn't happen is athletes leaving the track. That is the gist of this argument.

Anyone who has done any software testing (or testing in general) tests for every scenario possible, until budget or time line constraints start holding the project back. This is likely where a good chunk of the investigation will go - did computer models pinpoint this situation and what was done about it? If the software did not identify this corner as being a problem then the programmers will be hard at work to understand why the computer let them down (although if I was them, I would have been investigating as soon as I heard about the death). I don't know what they use to model this type of track...I would imagine if it's physics model is linked at all to roller coaster design, those guys for sure are double checking as well. If it turns out no computer modeling was used at all in the track design, then I would imagine either someone is in a lot of trouble, or this sport is in drastic need of 'modernization'.

Either way, the sport is not meant to launch players out of the track due to racer error. Anyone who has every participated in any 'speed' sport knows anything can happen at any time. As an ex ski 'racer', I bailed a few times when a spot of snow was really ice. Thankfully there was no chairlift beam at the turn.

I'm out of thanks, but this is exactly my point. Accidents are expected, driver error is expected, the consequences of such error should never look like that.

[wpgflamesfan]

So Apparently The Track Didn't Cause the Crash:
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/olympics/...v=ap&type=lgns

Fast and frightening, yes. Responsible for the death of a luger, no.

Olympic officials decided late Friday night against any major changes in the track or any delays in competition and even doubled up on the schedule in the wake of the horrifying accident that claimed the life of a 21-year-old luger from the republic of Georgia.

“This resulted in a late entrance into curve 16 and although the athlete worked to correct the problem, he eventually lost control of the sled, resulting in the tragic accident.”

I don't know how I feel about this and pray that no one else gets seriously injured.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by valo403

Christ, what's the point. You are honestly arguing that he was halfway down a straightaway when he flew off. If that's how your comprehension works I won't even bother. He flew off exiting 16, he was just past the end of the turn. Watch the video.

After exiting he HIT THE OTHER WALL FIRST and then CAME BACK and flew out the side.

It's not like he was just coming down from the turn and then there was all of a sudden no wall there which is how you make it sound.

And I've said that I agree it shouldn't have happened, but it was unforseen and now they've made that section of wall higher. Seems to me that the only possible thing that would satisfy the angry masses is for there to be 10 foot plexi all along the track to ensure that no athlete ever comes out again. In the normal course of things, no one would have ever flown out there either. Better safe than sorry, right?

[transplant99]

Accidents happen...its a real shame it cost a young man his life and his dream.

There have been, literally, thousands of runs down that track without that kind of catostrophic failure.

As with any traumatic event, everyone wants to place blame somewhere immediately. This one looks like there is blame to be shared among designers, sledder and organizers.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by wpgflamesfan

So Apparently The Track Didn't Cause the Crash:
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/olympics/...v=ap&type=lgns

I don't know how I feel about this and pray that no one else gets seriously injured.

Also from the article:

"It’s a very rare situation,” three-time Olympic champion and German coach Georg Hackl said.
Shortly before the accident, Hackl said he didn’t believe the Whistler track was unsafe.
“People have the opinion it is dangerous but the track crew does the best it can and they are working hard to make sure the track is in good shape and everyone is safe,” he said. “My opinion is that it’s not any more dangerous than anywhere else.”

Technically challenging; too much for the 44th ranked person on the circuit.

[Kybosh]

I seem to recall that Canada was not allowing international athletes to train on the new track before the games. Does anyone remember the article?

[HotHotHeat]

They can say what they want about it not being the track's fault, but they've moved the start gate to the same as the women's height.

Not the tracks fault? Sure sounds like it.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news-centr...+sliding+track

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

They can say what they want about it not being the track's fault, but they've moved the start gate to the same as the women's height.

Not the tracks fault? Sure sounds like it.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news-centr...+sliding+track

It was not a track issue, they moved it so the athletes would feel more comfortable. It's a psychological call.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

It was not a track issue, they moved it so the athletes would feel more comfortable. It's a psychological call.

Why would the athletes feel uncomfortable if there's no issue with the track?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by valo403

Why would the athletes feel uncomfortable if there's no issue with the track?

Lol.

Because it'll have nothing at all to do with their colleague's death; it would only be based on the track itself.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Lol.

Because it'll have nothing at all to do with their colleague's death; it would only be based on the track itself.

Well if the track is perfectly safe what's the problem with running as usual?

See, I can make stupid arguments with little thought behind them too.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by valo403

Well if the track is perfectly safe what's the problem with running as usual?

Really? From what I have heard is the top lugers want to go from the top and the IFL/VANOC are the ones pushing to have it at the front launch area. They are playing it safe, imagine that. I'm sure it also doesn't have to do with the mental aspect of it or anything.

People want to point at the beams and how unsafe the track is but we could have watched luge for the next X amount of days, saw those beams every single run for 100's of runs and not said a thing. It takes something like to realize how freak an accident can be and you can't prevent them all.

But I can see you are just trying to be a dick so continue on believing what you believe and I'll take the experts opinion on it.