Phaneuf,Sjostrom,Aulie traded to leafs for Hagman,Stajan,Mayers,White

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

I don't know about all of you, but I'm having alot of fun playing NHL 10 with the new lineup!

[ynwa03]

Hmmm nvm i swear i thought he spent a couple of seasons in San Jose.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Having player locked up for couple years means nothing if the player isn't very good, just ask Edmonton fans about their goalier who has a long term contract.

.

Having good players not under contract sucks just as much when they bolt.

It's also useless to trade for good players, have them do well, and then leave right away.

And before anyone starts lamenting how great cap space and flexibility is, I will point out that cap space is only useful if you can use it. How many goals is cap space scoring for the Islanders this season?

Back in the 1990s, the Flames were not a desirable location for free agents because the team was not a contender, and if the same thing happens now, the same thing will probably happen gain. Face it, we are not a city that can usually lure the best free-agents without also being a competetive franchise. If the Flames fail to make it past the 1st round (or even make the playoffs), I think we will all wish that Sutter traded Phaneuf for at least one really good player/prospect under contract for a few years than a bunch of "ok" players on short contracts.

[Smell My Finger]

Unless Sutter has some other crazy deal for a bigname forward involving flipping some of these new faces. Sutter has become good at double talk lately.

Hagman has 3 more years he stays.

White is a RFA 1.6 probably gets it done and no other team is going to throw an offer sheet so the Flames are safe there.

Stajan will get a test drive to see if Sutter want to pay the likely 2.7-3 million that Stajan thinks he is worth.

Mayers at 35 is a hardnosed Sutter type player but expendable.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Having good players not under contract sucks just as much when they bolt.

It's also useless to trade for good players, have them do well, and then leave right away.

And before anyone starts lamenting how great cap space and flexibility is, I will point out that cap space is only useful if you can use it. How many goals is cap space scoring for the Islanders this season?

.

I assume that is more a budget issue than a cap space issue. Flames will be able to spend to cap and here's hoping they do so wisely

[Honest_Liar]

First time poster here! I'll get this out of the way: I'm a die-hard Leafs fan, but I also follow the Flames with great interest. I'm sure what I'm about to say has been said already, but I'll say it anyway:

At first when I heard about the big trade yesterday, I was shocked and I had many mixed feelings. To be completely honest, I won't miss Stajan or Hagman despite their offensive production this year, but I think they'll be some nice additions to your team. Hopefully they'll give you the offensive punch you need. Both of them tend to disappear for games at a time, but they tend to score some clutch goals when your team needs it most. Hagman has a knack for scoring some beautiful goals too. You'll see. Mayers on the other hand is junk.

Ian White is the reason that I had mixed feelings. He was seen as a possible future captain for the Leafs, and he has the skills to live up to it. He plays very well defensively, but also has enough offensive skill to be a nice weapon. Phaneuf might have a howitzer of a shot, but White's got a nice one too. I think you guys are gonna love White, and I hope he continues his development and success on your team. Everything Bob McKenzie said on TSN was correct. White is definitely playing much better than Phaneuf is right now, and I think in the short-term, your team got a little better.

Anyways, I wanted to wish the former Leafs success in Calgary, and for anyone who is pessimistic about this trade, I think you'll come to find that it'll work out nicely for the Flames, especially with Ian White.

Cheers!

[Azure]

Dion Phaneuf is a big name. Big draft pick, big player. Or he was supposed to be.

Ian White isn't, which is why some people say the Leafs won this trade.

I honestly don't see it.

I remember when White came into the league. And from what people have been saying lately he has improved a lot. Phaneuf hasn't.

And if White keeps improving, Calgary has won this trade. Assuming that Phaneuf will continue to play like he has played the last 2 years.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Honest_Liar

First time poster here! I'll get this out of the way: I'm a die-hard Leafs fan, but I also follow the Flames with great interest.......

Cheers!

i don't know if you can be trusted.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

i don't know if you can be trusted.

At least he's not a Canucks fan.

[cyclone3483]

Azure, are you kidding me? Dion Phaneuf is a big name? I think Jordan Lavallee-Smotherman is a much bigger name. By 13 letters.

[FlamesFanFromBC]

So the trade basically breaks down to:



FOR

[Honest_Liar]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

i don't know if you can be trusted.

lol, I figured I'd get a reaction like this. Trust me or not, if White continues to develop the way that he has been, you guys have just traded for one hell of a defensemen. I'll be watching tonight to see how the new guys fit in. Should be a very interesting game.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Honest_Liar

lol, I figured I'd get a reaction like this.

What did you expect with a name like "Honest Liar"?

[bubbsy]

the one thing that has crept back to bug me, is why the F did the flames have to part with a decent, big, defenesive prospect in Aulie to get this deal done?!?!?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I don't know where McKenzie is finding $4M in cap space. It's only about $1M, unless he counts on us not resigning two of these guys next year.

Another note - if you watch Burke's presser, Sutter ASKED for Mayers and was one of the lynchpins of the deal somehow.

Not precisely. Sounded like the deal wasn't quite balanced. At that point Burke was demanding Sjostrom and it sounds like the deal got done when Sutter demanded Mayers in order to replace Sjostrom on our team. This shouldn't be confused into thinking that Mayers was the "lynchpin" of the deal, the dealbreaker, the most valuable asset in the deal, or any such nonsense that clearly isn't true.

Here's how I'm imagining it might have gone down.
1) Sutter looks to trade Phaneuf for a top 4 defenseman, a top 2 line winger and a top 2 centre.
2) Leafs have all the assets he wants but demand Aulie and Sjostrom in addition.
3) Flames don't make the deal until they replace Sjostrom with a similar player, PKer, 4th liner type. As a bonus, Mayers can take some faceoffs which has been problematic this year so Sjostrom->Mayers might be a slight upgrade in faceoff versatility and for PK.

Something like that. At any rate it seems clear that Mayers is in fact the least valuable part of the deal from either team. That his inclusion into the deal made it happen does not negate the previous sentence.


One thing I think some aren't factoring in how young Stajan and White actually are.

http://flames.nhl.com/club/roster.ht...ob&type=roster

White is about as young as Pardy and therefore one of the youngest d-men on the Flames. He sounds and looks very similar to former fan favourite Andy Ference IMO. He could be a somewhat core player on the defense for a while.

Stajan is only 26 and one of these new crop of UFA's. People are probably thinking he's older than he is because he is UFA. It will be interesting to see how he performs and if he re-signs.

My thinking is probably similar to a lot of people's at this point. I think it could upgrade the club short term adding a couple top two line forwards while not losing much if anything on the backend. I worry that perhaps Sutter did not get the longterm value you could or should out of asset like Dion. But that could certainly be negated by White, Stajan and Hagman becoming and performing like core players for us.

For those who wanted better value, you have to make a choice. Get better longterm value in terms of picks or prospects but those assets might not help you win for 5-7 years. Or get what looks to be lesser longterm value by getting help now.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out. My first reaction was negative. I've certainly warmed up to it and am hoping that White, Stajan and Hagman really impress. Also will be interesting to see if anything happens with Jokinen now.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SebC

Uggh. Sarich for future considerations would've given us just about the same amount of cap space as this deal.

Its not just about the actual dollar amount of cap space saved.

You have to take into account that Dion's salary is now paying several players. That changes the entire salary structure of the team and how much you can afford to pay forwards in the future. You replace a 6.5 million guy on defense with a guy making less than 2 million.

Dealing Sarich still could happen and it by itself would not have had the dramatic salary cap changing implications for years that his Phaneuf deal will have. Sutter can in the future (especially if Jokinen's salary goes poof) allocate Phaneuf's salary to one premiere forward, or several mid-range forwards. That may have drastic implications for our scoring depth without having hurt the defense too much if at all.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope

I'm not sure where everyone is seeing all this supposed cap space...?

Hagman makes 3 mil for a few more seasons...

So with just Hagman you're saving $3.5 mil.

White needs to be re-signed as an RFA and with his numbers is probobly around $2 - $3 ish mil/year...

If you re-sign Stajan who will be around $3 mil you're actually spending more than Phanuef by about $2 mil or so...

Or you are dropping 1 or 2 of these guys with marginal extra cap space...

?

Did I miss something?

Yes. The issue is that Phaneuf can only play as one person on the ice. Hagman, White and Stajan are 3 players. So you are mysteriously forgetting about the other 2 players who would have to be playing.

Phaneuf 6.5 million
Random Guy X 1.5 million
Random Guy Y 1.5 million

VS

Hagman 3 million
White 1.5 million
Stajan 2 million
(all numbers are approximations due to FA status)

If those numbers were the case you'd be saving the entire salaries of Random Guy X and Random Guy Y, the guys most people are forgetting about when they do their overly simplistic salary cap math. I've ballparked them at a fairly low 1.5 million each. Backlund could be filled in as one of those guys. So basically you're saving a few million depending on who Sutter would have had to use in their places.

The salary cap implications become more obvious when Jokinen's contract expires. Then you have like 5+ million to spend. And instead of having to spend that on 3-4 forwards, with our new potential depth we might be able to concentrate that into 1-2 forwards. Yes there are raises that need to be factored in too and some expiring contracts but thats a rough approximation.

It changes the dynamics of how much is spent on defense in Calgary and how much on forwards. We can now and in the future afford to spend more up front. That is what is not reflected in a simplistic salary cap subtraction to see how much cap space was temporarily gained.

[nemanja2306]

Flames Draft Watcher, gotta say, great posts!

[Double_Dion]

Unless the Flames win the cup this year, this trade is a complete bust - and these aren't the "Nieuwendyk"s to take us over the top.

What happens when we lose in the first round?
Second round?
Third round?

Stajan leaves, mayers leaves. Your left with 30 year old Hagman and White- if we resign him. Sorry to say, but those guys are nowhere near Dions talent level.

Absolutely despicable.

Sutters have to go. Why build your team and system around the coaches liking, when you could build it around your superstars; mainly - the defense. When the d, mainly Dion, rush the puck into the zone, he creates more chances than when the forwards send it deep. Why weren't they(Dion) utilized more often like that?

I am still so shocked and angry, I can hardly put it into words.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

As I posted in the other thread, the capspace is hardly anything at all. I would like McKenzie to explain the $4M in space unless he is referring to Dion being salary locked in and Stajan, White, Mayers, etc. being salary that is not locked in, rendering the trade Dion for Hagman?

Okay, out goes:
Phaneuf ($6.5M)
Sjostrom ($0.75M)
Total: $7.25M

In comes:
Hagman ($3.0M)
Stajan ($1.75M)
Mayers ($1.33M)
White ($0.85)
Total: $6.93M

Difference: $320,000

You can only balance a 4 player vs 4 player salary cap comparison.

If we've got 4 new players in, then 4 players must be out. What you aren't factoring in is the 2 players that get sent down or sat. So Backlund and Lundmark for another 2 million or so or whoever else you wanna pick. What is interesting is if you think longer term and that the players being subtracted might include Sarich or Jokinen. That starts to give the Flames crazy options for allocating salary in the future.