Has anyone done (or have) detailed analysis of how much you need to drive per year, with $1/L fuel costs, for a hybrid to pay over an equivalent non-hybrid model?
As a family, we drive our main car about 35,000 kms per year ... is that in hybrid desirable territory or not even close?
It really depends on how you're driving it too. If you're driving on the highway, the gas mileage isn't really any better than a traditional gasoline engine, so in that case no. If you're driving stop-and-go downtown traffic for 35,000 km/yr, then it's probably getting to the point where you'd get the extra $5000 or so back in fuel savings within a few years at most.
I did a quick Calc compairing the base Corolla to the base Prius which is about 10 grand more. Using the combined gas miliage ratings of each car from the toyota website you have to drive 200K to save $5000. I posted the calcs in another very similar thread. Note this is a very simplistica calc as it only looks at milage and not repair costs or residual value.
It would also depend on how you highway vs City split is. If you are traveling most of your k's at 80K + then a hybrid isn't going to save you much gas as the highway fuel milage for a hybrid is pretty much the same as a normal car. If you are in stop and go traffic for those 35k then the benifit would be greater. This is due to the fact the two main ways hybrids are more efficient are shutting off the engine/charging batteries when idling and bread regeneration. Niether of these apply while on the highway.
If I could come home every day and plug my car in and never need to go to a gas station except to use the air pump, I would be a happy, happy man. I don't give a rat's behind if the car is the perfect environmental solution or not, as far as I am concerned they could mine the nickel with toxic waste producing bulldozers who run over cute furry animals every 10 seconds.
I am not planning on buying a new car for 3 or more years, but when I do I will probably consider whatever hybrids are out there as among my options. It isn't as simple as buying a gas car though, as you do have to consider all the extra costs involved, like battery replacement.
Great Idea, Just hope that you electric company isn't using coal to burn for electricity....
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If you're going to post threads like this, at least get your facts straight. I will use the Prius as an example because it has sold by far the most of any hybrid.
- Hybrids have a more complex powertrain, which creates more opportunity for problems. This means more time in the shop, and larger repair bills.
The Prius is one of the most reliable cars on the road, and easily one of the lowest costs/kilometer. The battery pack has been shown to last over 400,000 Km in fleet vehicles. Many cars need an entire transaxle or even engine at this point which cost far and above what a new battery pack will be. The regenerative braking also saves the friction pads and they last many times the service life in a conventional car.
- Some hybrids parts are more expensive, and not as readily available
Got any examples of this? Which parts? Some high end luxury cars have extremely expensive parts, and are only available at the dealer. The Prius sells in the millions, parts are readily available, everywhere. And again, the Prius is one of the most reliable and inexpensive cars to own.
- Not every repair shop has a mechanic who is certified to work on a hybrid
Not every repair shop should be anywhere near a modern auto, hybrid or not. The Prius drivetrain is actually much more simple (and has vastly fewer moving parts) than many cars on the road.
The money saved on fuel is not enough to offset the greater cost of purchase and repairs.
Blanket statement rooted in ignorance. It depends how much you drive. No single model is able to fill everyone's needs. If you buy a pickup truck but never use the hauling capability, you have made a poor purchasing choice.
I could go on and on, but your post is just another example of ignorant "hybrid hate" and not based on anything rational. A hybrid is not perfect, it has flaws, but it is a transitional technology that with some luck will finally rid us all of oil burning engines for good.
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Great Idea, Just hope that you electric company isn't using coal to burn for electricity....
I hate this argument.
The ICE is something like 25-30% efficient. A good coal power plant can be something like 45-55% efficient. It is also localized in one place, meaning that economies of scale come into play, and any technological upgrades can be done to raise efficiency. This is far easier than forcing every car owner to go and get an upgrade at a cost that will have no performance benefit, but only a fluffy environmental benefit.
Also, having a significant load at night will help balance out the demand for electricity over the day, meaning that you're not using 80% capacity during the day, and having to shut off or waste electricity during the night. This would also help improve efficiency, and could even bring newer technologies into play like wind, where you can't control when you're getting the electricity.
On a more direct comparison, if we assume the energy loss of transporting the electricity generated from the power plant and the cost of trucking fuel to gas stations is the same, you're basically having to burn two units of oil per every unit of coal to get the same amount of energy. While coal is dirty, having to burn twice as much oil equalizes the emission rate.
Plug-in cars (whether purely electric or some sort of hybrid/hydrogen mix) are the future. There are many other issues with them at the current moment, but the fact that they draw their energy from a fossil fuel is not one of them.
The ICE is something like 25-30% efficient. A good coal power plant can be something like 45-55% efficient. It is also localized in one place, meaning that economies of scale come into play, and any technological upgrades can be done to raise efficiency. This is far easier than forcing every car owner to go and get an upgrade at a cost that will have no performance benefit, but only a fluffy environmental benefit.
works both ways though, you're much more likely to replace your car with a more efficient version then your coal plant you bought 5 years ago.
Since most of the people who are giving their opinions haven't actually owned a hybrid, I thought I should add my thoughts. I bought a Honda Insight hybrid in 2005 for $19,500 usd, but the government gave me a $2,000 tax credit, so it made my cost $17,500. I've averaged just over 50 mpg for the 107,000 miles that I've driven so far. Assuming that gas has averaged $3 per gallon since '05, I've spent $6,420 on gas. If I had a similar non-hybrid, it might average about 35 mpg, so I'd have spent $9,171 on gas. Subtracting my gas savings from my after-tax-credit purchase price brings my effective purchase price down to $14,750. I've replaced a few tires, gotten regular oil changes, and replaced the brake pads, but other than that, I haven't spent anything. I know that I probably could have bought something cheaper, but I'm already satisfied with my effective purchase price and that will continue to drop as I continue to drive.
Great Idea, Just hope that you electric company isn't using coal to burn for electricity....
Maybe I was unclear, I don't care how much environmental impact my car has before, during or after its life span. Ok, that might not be exactly true, but it would hardly factor at all into my decision to buy a car like this. That said, even if the only power source that I received power from was coal power plants, the world would be in a terrible position if those plants were not more efficient than my moderately maintained vehicle with the occasional check engine light.
I am sure many people care exactly what happens to get that nickel into the battery and what the environmental impact it has after it gets replaced, but I don't. Personally, I have a lot more important things to worry about, like getting my education, putting food in front of my kids and keeping a roof over my head. I am confident that many whiney tree huggers will have complained so long and so loud about things like this that when I am in a posistion to buy one of these vehicles I will be more than comfortable with the impact it has on the enviroment.
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I did a quick Calc compairing the base Corolla to the base Prius which is about 10 grand more. Using the combined gas miliage ratings of each car from the toyota website you have to drive 200K to save $5000. I posted the calcs in another very similar thread. Note this is a very simplistica calc as it only looks at milage and not repair costs or residual value.
It would also depend on how you highway vs City split is. If you are traveling most of your k's at 80K + then a hybrid isn't going to save you much gas as the highway fuel milage for a hybrid is pretty much the same as a normal car. If you are in stop and go traffic for those 35k then the benifit would be greater. This is due to the fact the two main ways hybrids are more efficient are shutting off the engine/charging batteries when idling and bread regeneration. Niether of these apply while on the highway.
Why are Prius's so expensive in Canada? In the US, there is only a 4-5000 dollar difference, and the Corolla is lacking many basic features of the Prius, ie power windows and locks, and has a lot less cargo room.
Why are Prius's so expensive in Canada? In the US, there is only a 4-5000 dollar difference, and the Corolla is lacking many basic features of the Prius, ie power windows and locks, and has a lot less cargo room.
And that's not too mention that a Prius is the size of a Camry, and should be compared to the Camry, not the Corolla. a Prius is classified as a mid size car.
A Prius also offers more interior features than are offered on cheaper cars.
No, for many people, it doesn't make economic sense to buy a hybrid. But for many people, it makes a lots of sense, especially when you consider other factors other than pure economics.
It pretty much should be mandatory for cab drivers to drive hybrids.
My main reason for owning one would be for air quality reasons. No more useless idling in the city. Looking at a Highlander Hybrid for my next vehicle.
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I love driving my dad's prius. Great car to drive. Has more than enough power. Seriously, why are cars so powerful thee days? The Prius, thanks to electric motor boost, can accelerate from 100 - 140 km/h faster then just about any other "normal" sedan I've driven. I'd pulll out to pass people, floor it, and I'd look down to see that I was going 145 km/h or something as I'd be passing. All the other cars I regularly drive get up to about 120 or so when I'm passing.
One misconception about Hybrids is that they are underpowered. Let me assure you, they are not.
I love driving my dad's prius. Great car to drive. Has more than enough power. Seriously, why are cars so powerful thee days? The Prius, thanks to electric motor boost, can accelerate from 100 - 140 km/h faster then just about any other "normal" sedan I've driven. I'd pulll out to pass people, floor it, and I'd look down to see that I was going 145 km/h or something as I'd be passing. All the other cars I regularly drive get up to about 120 or so when I'm passing.
One misconception about Hybrids is that they are underpowered. Let me assure you, they are not.
I hope this entire post is one big joke. A Prius' 0-60 is 10 seconds. That's slow motion if you're a car guy.
