The Official 09/10 Liverpool F.C. Thread

[NBC]

You can only blame the ownership for so much of Liverpool's problems this season. Sure it is unsettling times at Anfield but in reality team management has been the biggest problem in most pundits (even Phil Thompson's) eyes.

No idea of a solution as this problem runs as deep as the Mersey.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by NBC

You can only blame the ownership for so much of Liverpool's problems this season. Sure it is unsettling times at Anfield but in reality team management has been the biggest problem in most pundits (even Phil Thompson's) eyes.

No idea of a solution as this problem runs as deep as the Mersey.

However, I heard that one of the reasons the owners have so far refused to let Rafa goes is because they are unwilling to pay his huge compensation. Therefore, they should share a good portion of the blame.

When I look back at the tables from seasons past and I see a Top 4 club somewhere lower down the table I often wonder what is was like that season and how did the club manage to end up where they did. It feels like this year Liverpool is answering the latter.

[Jagger]

Torres: Out, six weeks. Gerrard: Out, two weeks. Benny: Out, three to four weeks. Wonderful news. Just what we needed right now.

Bagor and united won't even bother making fun of our situation anymore, it's so pathetic. (Who am I kidding?)

[d_phaneuf]

I support spurs, I was born in London (only lived there till I was 2 but most of my family still does) so I don't hate Liverpool at all. in fact of the sky sports top 4 I have always cheered for them in the Champions League etc.

So I am trying to come at this with no bias. Liverpool's problem is at this point they have 2 great players (obvious), 1 very good player (Maschereno), 1 very hard working player (Kuyt), 1 very good goalie, an average back 4 and no depth after that

And in my mind it falls completely on Rafa for his failed buys. Lucas, Babel, Keane, Aquilani (so far) etc.

They don't have the depth of any of the top 5 teams at this point and it holds them back whenever Gerrard or Torres are out or just having a bad game.

They need at least 2 more solid attacking options (Maxi Rodriguez was a very good cheap buy with some decent upside) but they need more than that.

[united]

Originally Posted by Jagger

Torres: Out, six weeks. Gerrard: Out, two weeks. Benny: Out, three to four weeks. Wonderful news. Just what we needed right now.

Bagor and united won't even bother making fun of our situation anymore, it's so pathetic. (Who am I kidding?)

When have I ever trolled like that?

I leave that business to you and locke.

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by united

When have I ever trolled like that?

I leave that business to you and locke.

Never that I recall which is unusual for a United fan.

My 'trolling' is mostly in jest. Obviously, I come by my hatred of Man U quite honestly but there's no denying their success.

[NBC]

Ticket Mix-Up Leaves Liverpool FC Red-Faced

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...r_Email_Bungle

Just because this is so funny, I'm posting it in the Premiership thread as well. Sorry but this had to be done.

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by NBC

Ticket Mix-Up Leaves Liverpool FC Red-Faced

Just because this is so funny, I'm posting it in the Premiership thread as well. Sorry but this had to be done.

Perfectly sums up what a joke this has all become. Top to bottom this club needs a huge shakeup.

[Dagger]

[quote=And in my mind it falls completely on Rafa for his failed buys. Lucas, Babel, Keane, Aquilani (so far) etc.[/quote]

First off, every manager has there bad buys, buy I tend to like Rafa's spending. Aurelio was on a free, as was Maxi, Torres was 20MP, Lucas wasn't overly expensive, Agger 5MP, Skrtel 6.5 and Kuty for 9MP.

How can you call Aquilani a flop? He's been playing quite well, and has a fantastic football brain, he just hasn't looked as good as he can because the runs haven't been made for him. He's been out for 6 months, and adjusting to a foreign league, give him time. He hasn't looked out of place at all.

You haven't watched Liverpool if you think Lucas has been a flop this season. He didn't start out well, but he has been consistently good for the past few months. It's been a rare bright spot this season. The lad finally has some confidence, since the supporters stopped ragging on him every game-starting to see the same with Degen.

My opinion on Rafa:
Firing Rafa would set us way back. The owners do not have the cash to bring an adequate replacement in. It took Ferguson 4 years to win any silverware, and 7 for a league title, and his results in the table were erratic to say the least. Houllier's treble included a UEFA Cup, which all of a sudden under Rafa is not a Liverpool trophy. Rafa has brought us back to European greatness, and we have been a power in Europe under him, he's won an FA cup already, to go along with steady good results in the PL, including our highest ever point total. He gets no transfer funds(literally as of now, and in the past when comparing to the likes of Chelsea and United) and has had the chance to go to Real Madrid and spend as much as he likes on whomever. He stayed because he loves Liverpool, and wants to win here. Most supporters are backing him, it's the media head hunting.

Besides, compare Wenger's results since Chelsea became a PL powerhouse. They're extremely comparable, maybe even a bit worse than Liverpool's but because he plays sexy football, nothing is said.

[Dagger]

Lee Mason's decisions, make Auger's calls look good. Wow, unlucky for the Reds.

Well played Lucas and Krygiakos.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Besides, compare Wenger's results since Chelsea became a PL powerhouse. They're extremely comparable, maybe even a bit worse than Liverpool's but because he plays sexy football, nothing is said.

Nothing is said about Wegner because he can justify their lack of silverware and his success is being measured in different terms to Rafa. Wegner has explicitly stated that he is building towards something and has placed the emphasis on securing continued long-term success in the future rather than short-term glory, which can excuse him from not, or at least justifiably explain why he hasn't been, winning anything lately. On the other hand, Rafa has not rejected the board and supporters of Liverpool's mandate for more instant success and we have to judge him on the short-term basis.

Therefore, when we look at Arsene's results we have to look at them over the long run and when we do we see that he is achieving a level of success as he is clearly making progress. However, when we look at Rafa we see failure as the Big 4 clubs view success as winning lots of trophies and in the time he has been allotted, which is the short-term optioned he chose by default, he has failed to accomplish this.

Also, while Liverpool has had great success in Europe under Rafa's rule have they been as competitive in the BPL as Chelsea and United have been in the CL?

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by Addick

Nothing is said about Wegner because he can justify their lack of silverware and his success is being measured in different terms to Rafa. Wegner has explicitly stated that he is building towards something and has placed the emphasis on securing continued long-term success in the future rather than short-term glory, which can excuse him from not, or at least justifiably explain why he hasn't been, winning anything lately. On the other hand, Rafa has not rejected the board and supporters of Liverpool's mandate for more instant success and we have to judge him on the short-term basis.

Therefore, when we look at Arsene's results we have to look at them over the long run and when we do we see that he is achieving a level of success as he is clearly making progress. However, when we look at Rafa we see failure as the Big 4 clubs view success as winning lots of trophies and in the time he has been allotted, which is the short-term optioned he chose by default, he has failed to accomplish this.

Also, while Liverpool has had great success in Europe under Rafa's rule have they been as competitive in the BPL as Chelsea and United have been in the CL?

Arsenal's goals at the start of every season are the same as everyone of the top 4(I know it's the same for every club in the world, but for the big 4 it's at least in reach) and that's to win as many trophies as possible. Wenger hasn't delivered since huge money was injected by Chelsea, if we are going to say Rafa hasn't. It's rubbish if you think Wenger is given a pass, because he's in it "for the longterm" do you not think every other top 4 club is? Arsenal are trying to win every year, don't fool yourself.

I'd also like to point out, that Rafa has assembled superb young talent in Dani Pacheco, Lauri Dalla Valle, and Nathan Ecclestone. Also Martin Kelly, Daniel Ayala, Stephen Darby, an Jay Spearing have all stepped in on short notice and not played piss poor. Insua is another one, and while he hasn't looked great recently, he's starting to get capped by Argentina.

Hell if Lucas played for Arsenal or United, the commentators would jizzing themselves. Fact is Ngog is another nice young player. He didn't look well today, but 4 goals in 10 games is a fair return, especially considering the man Rafa was ridiculed for passing on by everyone(Owen) has 2 in 14 appearances.

Well no the board wants him to win now, they're trying to make the price of the club even more ridiculous than they value it. If they really wanted him to win, they would give him the funds to do so. He hasn't been given the proper tools to deliver.

How is Rafa supposed to compete with the likes of Chelsea, when they can spend 18MP, on a squad player in Yuri Zhirkov, who has not been ridiculed like Aquilani, who in fact costed less money, and has played when available and looked good in the process.

And who exactly will we get as manager, seeing as Rafa just signed a 5 year extension, which the Yanks will have to buy out, or pay it, along with pay top dollar for a good manager- which we most likely won't get. Roy Hodgson or Alex McCleish as Liverpool manager would be horrendous. Remember contract extensions came out of Rafa's transfer kitty, just to show how cheap the Yanks are.

He has injury problems with Torres and Gerrard and no cash for decent backups, hell no money for a proper winger.

Rafa has been more successful in Europe than domestically, and he's admitted he's better suited for European competitions, but while he's not won the league, he's come damn close, set the record for most points, all while being vastly underfunded.

[Nuje]

Well, clearly something is wrong. There are 2 different sets of people to blame.

1. The ownership: They're not giving Rafa enough money, or

2. Management. Be it Rafa, Sammy Lee, anyone else on the staff. You can blame Rafa for bringing in wrong players, or employing a very wrong style.

I think that for the money provided, Rafa has made good player decisions. Not enough of a sample size to say how good Maxi will be, but Kyrgiakos certainly had a very good game today. What bothers me is some of the tactics.

There is a very small list of teams who are as bad at set pieces (both delivering, and defending against), than Liverpool are. The ball ends up on a non-Liverpool head most of the time in any situation, and that's something that needs to be taken care of. Another seriously annoying thing was the tendency to play in the air today. It wasn't working, but the team somehow was allergic to keeping the ball on the ground. While that was bad enough, the worst part was, the play changed after Kyrgiakos scored, and Liverpool were attempting to hold on to that narrow lead. When they pressured Stoke, it was going well. Liverpool however, are not good at "parking the bus" either. Might as well go for that second goal really.

As far as the tactics, is it Rafa? Is it the players? I'm not sure that it could be the players, as you'd assume that Rafa would tell them to stop that crap, but if it's Rafa, why is he continuing to try something that clearly isn't working?

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Dagger

It's rubbish if you think Wenger is given a pass, because he's in it "for the longterm" do you not think every other top 4 club is? Arsenal are trying to win every year, don't fool yourself.

Considering he hasn't won a major trophy in 5 years I think it is safe to say that he's been getting passes. While Arsenal are putting out competitive squads every season the board recognizes Arsene's plan and have reduced their expectations. When I say he's in it for the long term I mean that he is trying to turn Arsenal into a self-sustaining club. What I mean by this is he's not just assembling a squad that can build a mini-dynasty but a club that can regenerate these squads. No other club in the league is doing this, they may look beyond this season but not too far after that (i.e. 3-5 year plans).

Originally Posted by Dagger

I'd also like to point out, that Rafa has assembled superb young talent in Dani Pacheco, Lauri Dalla Valle, and Nathan Ecclestone. Also Martin Kelly, Daniel Ayala, Stephen Darby, an Jay Spearing have all stepped in on short notice and not played piss poor. Insua is another one, and while he hasn't looked great recently, he's starting to get capped by Argentina.

Are you seriously going to compare the lot Rafa has assembled with the one Wegner has complied and the structure he has installed for them?

Originally Posted by Dagger

How is Rafa supposed to compete with the likes of Chelsea, when they can spend 18MP, on a squad player in Yuri Zhirkov...

How's Fergie doing it? Wise investments and smart tactics. How's Wegner trying to do it? Slow playing it.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by Addick

Considering he hasn't won a major trophy in 5 years I think it is safe to say that he's been getting passes. While Arsenal are putting out competitive squads every season the board recognizes Arsene's plan and have reduced their expectations. When I say he's in it for the long term I mean that he is trying to turn Arsenal into a self-sustaining club. What I mean by this is he's not just assembling a squad that can build a mini-dynasty but a club that can regenerate these squads. No other club in the league is doing this, they may look beyond this season but not too far after that (i.e. 3-5 year plans).

What does it matter if the club is self sustaining if there is no silverware?

Originally Posted by Are you seriously going to compare the lot Rafa has assembled with the one Wegner has complied and the structure he has installed for them?[/QUOTE

I didn't mean to imply I was comparing them, rather that Rafa has a fair collection of prospects as well, and has set himself for the future as well-unlike a Chelsea. He's not just geared for a short term success, there is no window for him to win, he's in to try and win it every year-like every other club, which is why it's poor Wenger hasn't had any thing said about him the way Benitez has.

It's pathetic the scrutiny the press give Benitez every single minute, based on bollucks.

[QOUTE=How's Fergie doing it? Wise investments and smart tactics. How's Wegner trying to do it? Slow playing it.

Wise investments? I'd say Rafa is better in the transfer market, and just as good a tactician as whisky nose. When Rafa has his preferred squad, I'll take his tactics over Ferguson's every time.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by Nuje

As far as the tactics, is it Rafa? Is it the players? I'm not sure that it could be the players, as you'd assume that Rafa would tell them to stop that crap, but if it's Rafa, why is he continuing to try something that clearly isn't working

He's too stubborn. He's a very good tactician, but he's very very picky about how something is done. We've used zonal marking last year, and Chelsea in years before, and nothing was said. It's just this year a fuss has been made.

I'd say it's a mix of both Rafa and the players. If we're honest only Krygiackos is dominant in the air. Skrtel is very poor in the air for his size, Carra has been outmuscled, and Johnson outsmarted. Gerrard and Torres are decent in the air, but are poor when it comes to clearing out headers. That lies in some of the problem.

Honestly switching to man marking wouldn't make it better. There would be mismatches in the box, and most of the problems with zonal marking would be exploited in man marking.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Dagger

What does it matter if the club is self sustaining if there is no silverware?

I did not say that Arsenal is an self-sustaining club, I said that Arsene is trying to turn them into one. If that happens, the trophies will come and hopefully in great numbers.

Originally Posted by Dagger

Wise investments? I'd say Rafa is better in the transfer market, and just as good a tactician as whisky nose. When Rafa has his preferred squad, I'll take his tactics over Ferguson's every time.

How do you explain Ferguson's job security and United's better position? Not only have United had to deal with suffering many injuries but they also lost a truly irreplaceable player. In addition, injuries are part and parcel of the game and something managers have to deal with. If he is just as good a tactician as Ferguson why are they miles apart in the table?

[Dagger]

[QUOTE=How do you explain Ferguson's job security and United's better position? Not only have United had to deal with suffering many injuries but they also lost a truly irreplaceable player. In addition, injuries are part and parcel of the game and something managers have to deal with. If he is just as good a tactician as Ferguson why are they miles apart in the table?[/QUOTE]

Ferguson's security relates to past success. They know he'll do a good job. But he had tons of time to show that. Rafa was far more successful in his first years here, than Fergie was at United.

Ferguson has a far better bench. Rafa's lack of funds don't leave much room for second choice players. That's why there is a difference in standing.

Look at the results last year for Liverpool when Benitez had it his way. 4-1 at OT, and a win at Anfield. Even this year, we got a win against them without Gerrard. It was because of Benitez's tactics.

This is really the first year that some of Benitez's tactics have been brought in to discussion, and really it's the only way he could do things. Play defensive football and counter attack, or attack sparingly. And really we've been unlucky with some bollox penalty kick calls, both for and against, and bad bounces. Sunderland goal was a joke, Lucas should have gotten the penalty the other day, not a yellow and the Reading PK was brutal. How about the Tottenham qualms, where we had a fair shout for 2 more PKs?

It's brutal.

[d_phaneuf]

Arsene gets a free pass because the owners aren't really involved and are content to be a club that makes the CL, if he ever missed that then I think he would come under some pressure. Liverpool are expected to compete for the title with Utd and Spartak London. Its all about expectations really, for the past 3-4 years Arsenal have been pretty much a selling club (Henry, Adebayor, Toure etc.) that competing for the league is a bonus not a requirement.

Liverpool deserved 2 more pks against Spurs? in the opener? don't know about that. And the pk that reading got was the right call

I do think Liverpool win wednesday, Spurs never win these important games that they are supposed too (and with no Yossi, Torres or Gerrard Spurs are superior on the pitch by a fair margin).

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Ferguson's security relates to past success. They know he'll do a good job. But he had tons of time to show that. Rafa was far more successful in his first years here, than Fergie was at United.

Ferguson has a far better bench. Rafa's lack of funds don't leave much room for second choice players. That's why there is a difference in standing.

The first point that you make is fair but I believe that if United had a new manager that came in the same time as Rafa did the former would have more job security as well. This relates to the second point that you made, Ferguson has a far better bench. He assembled that bench, which works for United, without spending Chel$ki kind of cash. He was in a similar situation to Rafa but has done better.

Originally Posted by Dagger

Look at the results last year for Liverpool when Benitez had it his way. 4-1 at OT, and a win at Anfield. Even this year, we got a win against them without Gerrard. It was because of Benitez's tactics.

Fair play to Rafa for beating United but there are 18 other clubs in the league where you have to apply winning tactics, which something he has not consistently been able to achieve.

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

Arsene gets a free pass because the owners aren't really involved and are content to be a club that makes the CL, if he ever missed that then I think he would come under some pressure...

I do think Liverpool win wednesday, Spurs never win these important games that they are supposed too (and with no Yossi, Torres or Gerrard Spurs are superior on the pitch by a fair margin).

I don't want to sidetrack the Scouser thread with Gunnar talk so I'll make this brief. If you look at what the owners have done off the pitch it is very hard to say that they are not involved. Also, out of the players you listed only one was a forced sale. I do agree, however, that Spurs will lose on Wednesday. It's just the way it is with Spurs...