Two Tory MLAs crossing to Wildrose Alliance

[Azure]

Originally Posted by troutman

What I meant by that, is there was just a leadership race contested by two candidates with very different views (Smith and Dyrholm) - I don't think WRA has really worked out what they stand for, especially on social issues.

Are Smith's views going to dominate?

Smith won. Pretty obvious which direction the party members want to go.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Slava

If they were doing it for demcracy then why not re-sign and preserve democracy in its fullest sense? Proof is in the pudding.

Slava, they are doing it within the democratic traditions and procedures established over hundreds of years of the parliamentary system. They are doing it in the way that they best see fit. By doing it in a way that you don't agree with does not make it any less democratic.

[Azure]

People also need to realize that the voting population always becomes disgruntled when things go wrong. Look at the US and how quickly they forgot that the Republicans screwed them over for 8 years. Now, just 1 year after giving the Democrats the House and Congress, those same Democrats could quite possibly lose a lot of seats to the Republicans. The Republicans that took their turn the past 8 years doing what the Democrats are doing now.

The price of oil is going up. Not sure what gas is doing though. But oil is sitting right around $80/bbl right now and from all indications its going to keep going up. The economy, at least in Canada is also appearing to be on the rebound. If that keeps up, and Alberta pulls out of this slump before 2012 and things start looking up(or down when you talk about the deficit).....will the people still vote for the WRA?

These are all things that need to be considered by any MLA that wants to 'jump ship' as people call it.

Personally, the more I read about Anderson, the less I think he is actually just jumping ship. There is a lot more to his decision than simply not wanting to be a part of sinking Conservative ship.

But I could be mistaken.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Azure

Smith won. Pretty obvious which direction the party members want to go.

Not only did she win, but the result was so decisive that Dyrholm didn't even want the vote count released. I think it is safe to say, based on the endorsement of Smith by the membership that the party is most likely to head to a fiscally conservative, social libertarian type platform. Certainly though some things will be farther to the right - i.e.: the views on climate change.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Show me proof that it is working and running effectively. Look, I am not saying Alberta's education system is a complete pile of crap, but it isn't the best not even close and it is getting worse.



First off, who said anything about private schools? Like I said, the WRA plan would be to allocate funding per child and allow parents to decide which school their child would go to ie: public or a charter. A charter is not a private school and it is not for profit. And, do you really need me to explain why competition is important in any field including education.





Don't take it so personal, this isn't attack against you or teachers. Why are you so closed minded about change? Do you really think that how our education system is set up for junior high and high school prepare children for the real world? Lets take that even further, primary education is heading down a road where children's feelings and self esteem are more important that teaching them and ensuring they know the proper curriculum. From my experience it is not really up to the school or teachers if a child should be held back anymore, it is up to the parents...and it usually shouldn't be up to the parents.

Man, the hand-wringing about Canada's public school system really cracks me up--and it's especially ironic given that to the south of us is an utter failure of a public school system--and that's what the WRA wants to emulate, with its vouchers and school choice policies.

Look: I've taught recent high school grads in both countries. Believe me when I tell you this: Canada's high schools and junior high schools are preparing people for "the real world" just fine. Don't let your ideology blind you to the fact that we have it pretty good up here--and certainly don't let your ideology guide you down the path of emulating the gong show that is the U.S. primary education system.

The fact is, if you want to send your kids to Private school, you already have that choice. What you apparently want is to use public money to do it--and I don't think that's a fair or proper use of taxpayer funds. If you want public money, send your kids to public school. Pretty simple.

As for the issue of whether it's democratic to cross the floor, here's my take: of course it's democratic. These MLAs were voted in to represent their constituency, and if it's their judgment that they can best represent the voters by crossing the floor, then that is what they must do.

The fact that many voters erroneously believe that they vote for the party and not the person is irrelevant. In fact, political parties and party discipline are the real threat to "democracy" here, not duly elected legislators taking actions that are both democratic and proper according to parliamentary traditions and rules.

[Shazam]

He's just upset because high school didn't prepare him for stolen extension cords.

In terms of high school preparing children for "THE REAL WORLD", what a load of BS. 17 year olds have feeble, naive minds. Early 20s adults have feeble, naive minds. Besides, there's this thing called post-secondary where they can become less feeble and naive.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Man, the hand-wringing about Canada's public school system really cracks me up--and it's especially ironic given that to the south of us is an utter failure of a public school system--and that's what the WRA wants to emulate, with its vouchers and school choice policies.

Look: I've taught recent high school grads in both countries. Believe me when I tell you this: Canada's high schools and junior high schools are preparing people for "the real world" just fine. Don't let your ideology blind you to the fact that we have it pretty good up here--and certainly don't let your ideology guide you down the path of emulating the gong show that is the U.S. primary education system.

The fact is, if you want to send your kids to Private school, you already have that choice. What you apparently want is to use public money to do it--and I don't think that's a fair or proper use of taxpayer funds. If you want public money, send your kids to public school. Pretty simple.

As for the issue of whether it's democratic to cross the floor, here's my take: of course it's democratic. These MLAs were voted in to represent their constituency, and if it's their judgment that they can best represent the voters by crossing the floor, then that is what they must do.

The fact that many voters erroneously believe that they vote for the party and not the person is irrelevant. In fact, political parties and party discipline are the real threat to "democracy" here, not duly elected legislators taking actions that are both democratic and proper according to parliamentary traditions and rules.

It is not my ideology that governs my beliefs but my beliefs that govern my ideology.

Well I think it is a misconception that the WRA wants to change the education system into the American system. And it can be argued that it is the public system in the US that is disfuncational. Regardless, like I have said, I don't believe Alberta's system is the worst system out there. I am not sure why people keep saying that WRA wants private schools. Thats not it. basically it is the exact same as the public system, anyone is free to send their children to a charter school and would not be required to pay any money. It just allows for more competition. Now, I am not going to debate this any more because it is exactly the same arguement as health care. Should we have competition or not. That is basically what it boils down to.

As for your comment about preparing our teens for the real world, it doesn't. More and more graduates can barely read, they don't know how to write properly, they don't know the laws of the land, they don't know responsibility. I don't care what you say, they are not being prepared properly. And to be frank, a teacher wouldn't know. The people who would know would be employers, post secondary educators, police, judges, ect. These are the people that deal with the students once they graduate.

Anyhow, I have derailed this thread to much continue on....

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It is not my ideology that governs my beliefs but my beliefs that govern my ideology.

Well I think it is a misconception that the WRA wants to change the education system into the American system. And it can be argued that it is the public system in the US that is disfuncational. Regardless, like I have said, I don't believe Alberta's system is the worst system out there. I am not sure why people keep saying that WRA wants private schools. Thats not it. basically it is the exact same as the public system, anyone is free to send their children to a charter school and would not be required to pay any money. It just allows for more competition. Now, I am not going to debate this any more because it is exactly the same arguement as health care. Should we have competition or not. That is basically what it boils down to.

As for your comment about preparing our teens for the real world, it doesn't. More and more graduates can barely read, they don't know how to write properly, they don't know the laws of the land, they don't know responsibility. I don't care what you say, they are not being prepared properly. And to be frank, a teacher wouldn't know. The people who would know would be employers, post secondary educators, police, judges, ect. These are the people that deal with the students once they graduate.

Anyhow, I have derailed this thread to much continue on....

Well, the bolded one is me--so I guess you'd consider me an expert. Glad to be of service. Here's my expert opinion:

Many people are dumb enough that no education system will save them. Those that are not are being well served by public education in Canada.

As I said, feel free to waste your own money sending your own kids to private school if that's what floats your boat. Just don't ask me to waste mine. I want my taxes to pay for public schools.

[Ford Prefect]

I don't know why politics stir up so much debate. It's really a pretty simple science. You basically have two choices ... you can vote for a candidate from one of the Barking Idiots parties, or you can vote for a candidate from one of the Morally Bankrupt Criminals parties. All you have to do is decide whether you're more comfortable supporting the Barking Idiots or the Morally Bankrupt Criminals. Personally, I tend to waffle back and forth between the two, but most often I vote for the Barking Idiots.

Edit: Having voted for both the Barking Idiots and the Morally Bankrupt Criminals, I find the experience pretty much the same. Either way, I feel just as cheap and used the next morning.

[Resolute 14]

Aaaaand an Edmonton Journal reporter attempts to use these defenctions to trot out a Calgary vs. Edmonton angle to create strife:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...040/story.html

Wildrose plans to introduce a recall bill:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Wi...722/story.html

Do the Tories dare support it?

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Aaaaand an Edmonton Journal reporter attempts to use these defenctions to trot out a Calgary vs. Edmonton angle to create strife:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...040/story.html

Wildrose plans to introduce a recall bill:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Wi...722/story.html

Do the Tories dare support it?

Meh ... how many people in Edmonton can actually read. I mean, beyond goat intestines and chicken bones.

[Resolute 14]

The political divisions within the newspapers certainly seems interesting. At this point, it seems the Calgary Herald is pro-Alliance while the Edmonton Journal is firmly behind the Tories.

[Bobblehead]

My question is will these 2 parties split the traditional PC voters and leave room for the other parties to gain seats?

Minority similar to the federal parliament in the making?

[Slava]

Recall is just a dumb idea. I once thought that I would be in favour of this until I realised a few issues. Most of the ridings are somewhat competitive and getting the requisite number of signatures isn't really that shocking (say you have a competitive riding where the first past the post results are 38% to 30% for the first two...the second place finisher will likely get enough signatures to recall the guy who just won!).

I also don't know about the Tories "daring" to support this. If that bill contains a 10% of the signatures kind of figure then maybe the WRA ought to be careful what they wish for...that is a really low number. (In California IIRC the figure is 12% of those who were eligible to vote in the previous election).

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

My question is will these 2 parties split the traditional PC voters and leave room for the other parties to gain seats?

Minority similar to the federal parliament in the making?

Originally Posted by Slava

Recall is just a dumb idea. I once thought that I would be in favour of this until I realised a few issues. Most of the ridings are somewhat competitive and getting the requisite number of signatures isn't really that shocking (say you have a competitive riding where the first past the post results are 38% to 30% for the first two...the second place finisher will likely get enough signatures to recall the guy who just won!).

Ah first past the post... so full of holes. We should just scrap it a go with STV, enough with these artificial supermajorities.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

My question is will these 2 parties split the traditional PC voters and leave room for the other parties to gain seats?

Minority similar to the federal parliament in the making?

The short answer to this is "no".

The long answer is "no, because the Barking Idiots are too stupid to ever be able to take advantage of opportunities left for them by the Morally Bankrupt Criminals." Elementary.

For the Barking Idiots to ever get anywhere in this province, they will first have to become more morally bankrupt and criminal than the Morally Bankrupt Criminals, while somehow convincing voters they're not a bunch of barking idiots.

Edit: Also, the PCs are doing such a splendid job of super nova'ing that I don't think they'll be splitting votes with anyone except the Social Credit. They're still around aren't they? I'm really enjoying watching the PCs self-destruct. I haven't seen so many self-inflcted foot wounds since the Apple Dumpling Gang.

[Azure]

I don't like the recall idea. Just create fixed election dates.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The political divisions within the newspapers certainly seems interesting. At this point, it seems the Calgary Herald is pro-Alliance while the Edmonton Journal is firmly behind the Tories.

And yet not surprising. During the week between votes for the PC leadership up here it was all about how Stelmach was the only Edmonton area guy left. He'll protect us from the scary Calgarians.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It is not my ideology that governs my beliefs but my beliefs that govern my ideology.

Well I think it is a misconception that the WRA wants to change the education system into the American system. And it can be argued that it is the public system in the US that is disfuncational. Regardless, like I have said, I don't believe Alberta's system is the worst system out there. I am not sure why people keep saying that WRA wants private schools. Thats not it. basically it is the exact same as the public system, anyone is free to send their children to a charter school and would not be required to pay any money. It just allows for more competition. Now, I am not going to debate this any more because it is exactly the same arguement as health care. Should we have competition or not. That is basically what it boils down to.

As for your comment about preparing our teens for the real world, it doesn't. More and more graduates can barely read, they don't know how to write properly, they don't know the laws of the land, they don't know responsibility. I don't care what you say, they are not being prepared properly. And to be frank, a teacher wouldn't know. The people who would know would be employers, post secondary educators, police, judges, ect. These are the people that deal with the students once they graduate.

Anyhow, I have derailed this thread to much continue on....

I'd like some proof to support your contentions regarding several of your posts:

1.) More and more graduates can barely read
2.) Parts of the Alberta curriculum are useless crap
3.) The education system is broken

If you can't provide quantitative evidence, you'll have to admit you're just towing the party line by repeating rhetoric.

Just so you know, a charter school is much like a private school except it gets 100% of funding from the Gov. and not 70% like true private schools in this province. Government funding of private and alternative schools is just a topical treatment that doesn't address real issues related to public education (There are many.)

Incidentally, I have no problem supporting private hospitals and clinics as well, as long as the government doesn't fund treatments there.

What's wrong with program choice within a school board, like the CBE currently has?

And to be frank, a teacher wouldn't know. The people who would know would be employers, post secondary educators, police, judges, ect. These are the people that deal with the students once they graduate.

So a teacher isn't qualified to assess students' preparedness? A cop is in a better position? You're joking, right? Maybe a cop doesn't get to see a representative sample?

Anyhow, I have derailed this thread to much continue on....

Don't weasel out of this. This is legitimate criticism of a screwed up policy plank put out by a fringe party. And you didn't derail the thread, I did.

[Azure]

There is a school in the US that is operating different from the public system and their students are getting fabulous results.

I can't remember the name though.

Either way, the education debate reminds me a lot of the health care debate. Instead of sitting back and being open to looking at different countries and what their education system is like and maybe implementing some of their ideas, people seem content with 'its good enough' because they fear we'll become a lot like the US. Which I agree doesn't have a very good public education system.

Our system is pretty good, although I have my own opinion on the stupidity of some of the things that are taught, and I do think some things need to be improved, but still, pretty good.

A stronger focus on offering more diversity for one, and more technological advances through the province. Especially with IPTV so that kids can take classes that their school can't provide a teacher for.

Also, physical education needs to be changed(if it already hasn't) to provide more enjoyment to the kids and to also offer more opportunities. Making kids practice soccer, volleyball and badminton for hours on end isn't giving them very good exercise, nor is it making what used to be a very fun class.....fun. More emphasis needs to be put on playing the actually game and getting more kids involved.

I think there probably are issues with the education system that need to be addressed. I also happen to agree that there should be choices for parents. Be that private or public schooling. I don't really agree with a high level of government funding for the private system though. There are regulations that should be in place, but if a school wants to be private, it shouldn't be funded like a public school. I do agree with public funding for education and think that its necessary that we as taxpayers invest a lot of money in our future. The benefits will be massive down the road. As a very rich province, provided our money is handled right, we have the ability to do that and need to continue.