Blue Jays offseason

[habernac]

Philly are making out like bandits if this is indeed the deal.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by habernac

Philly are making out like bandits if this is indeed the deal.

i hear that. Every way I look at these deals, there is no way they arn't huge winners...granted the inner workings are not something that I am an expet in, but still...

[habernac]

which makes the salary thing hard to swallow for me. They're not taking some dead weight here, it's Roy freaking Halladay.

[Flickered Flame]

Originally Posted by habernac

Philly are making out like bandits if this is indeed the deal.

Which is sorta the basis for my previous post on the Jays not getting enough in return.

The prospects the Jays are getting are good young kids but how are the Phillies getting the best pitcher in MLB and good prospects themselves plus 6 million bucks?

There are going to be some lean years coming in Toronto. JP did a real number to that organization. AA has his work cut out for him.

[Trojan97]

Don't see why everyone thinks this is such a good trade for the Phillies?

Two different trades:
Halladay + 6 million cash for Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, Travis d'Arnaud

Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, Juan Ramirez for Cliff Lee.

I don't really see where any team fleeces the other. Lee is a pending FA looking to test the market which hampers his trade value.

The Phillies down-grade their prospect pool pretty significantly by trading away Drabek + Taylor who are both top 30 prospects for a couple guys who are in the 60-70 range. Also, Drabek has top flight potential as a starter while Aumont projects as a reliever, thats a big loss.

I think all teams involved did well for themselves, there is no way the Jays were getting more then they managed at this stage in the game. Two top prospects on the cusp of the majors is not a bad return.

[Saint Troy]

I think you have to remember that the Jays only had four options to trade Halladay due to his no trade clause. Two of them (Yanks or Boston) would have been a slap in the face to the fans, the Angels prospects weren't as good, so that pretty much lefty the Phillies. You certainly can't judge this deal from a Jays perspective for a few years, but I like the fact AA held out for Drabek, if he's anything like his old man, he'll be soild arm for many years.

[Jason14h]

I'm just thankful that they didn't drag this out and turn it into a Halliday vs the Jays type of situation. You can guarantee that good ole J.P. would have made Roy out to be the bad guy and dragged this through the media for 6 weeks.

At the end of the day Halliday put up with 5 years of embarassing management of this team and incompitence without once complaining. He went out every day and played professionally, something no other player can even come close to saying on this team.

Whatever the return the Jays owed it to him to send him to the team he wanted to play for, the Phillies.

At least we can route for the Phillies this year, imagine if it was the Yankees! Shudder!

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Which is sorta the basis for my previous post on the Jays not getting enough in return.

The prospects the Jays are getting are good young kids but how are the Phillies getting the best pitcher in MLB and good prospects themselves plus 6 million bucks?

They also gave up a guy named Cliff Lee.

When you actually break it down to the two separate deals, they are very similar and fair returns.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Trojan97

Don't see why everyone thinks this is such a good trade for the Phillies?

Two different trades:
Halladay + 6 million cash for Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, Travis d'Arnaud

Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, Juan Ramirez for Cliff Lee.

I don't really see where any team fleeces the other. Lee is a pending FA looking to test the market which hampers his trade value.

The Phillies down-grade their prospect pool pretty significantly by trading away Drabek + Taylor who are both top 30 prospects for a couple guys who are in the 60-70 range. Also, Drabek has top flight potential as a starter while Aumont projects as a reliever, thats a big loss.

I think all teams involved did well for themselves, there is no way the Jays were getting more then they managed at this stage in the game. Two top prospects on the cusp of the majors is not a bad return.

I agree, Philly traded a former Cy Young Pitcher to obtain three prospects. Remember Philly traded a bunch of prospects to obtain Lee.

Jays also traded a former Cy Young Pitcher to obtain three prospects of which Drabek is the prospect that has major league potential. Specualation is this is the prospect that Philly refused to move at the trade dead-line.

IMO Jays have made a really good trade. As for the $6M that doesn't matter at all. Jays are not going to need the dollars this year as they are not going to add high priced players.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

i hear that. Every way I look at these deals, there is no way they arn't huge winners...granted the inner workings are not something that I am an expet in, but still...

How do you figure? Remember Philly is also trading an Ace Pitcher to Seatle (if the rumour is true).

To obtain 3 prospects. Philly also moved a bunch of propsects last trade dead-line to obtain Lee.

This is basically two seperate trades.

[zukes]

I am wondering if that $6million in salary is Joe Blanton coming to the Jays.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by flambers

How do you figure? Remember Philly is also trading an Ace Pitcher to Seatle (if the rumour is true).

To obtain 3 prospects. Philly also moved a bunch of propsects last trade dead-line to obtain Lee.

This is basically two seperate trades.

well, they are signing halladay for below market, and getting him at 1/2 of way below market for next season (or thereabouts). he was statistically better than lee last season in essentially every category. To lump the two as "aces" is not fair, and i don't see how what they did to acquire lee last season should affect this deal at all, that's a strange thing to add. I'm probaly just being all nostalgic and whatnot about our guy, but whatev...gotta trust in AA.

[Pagal4321]

Anyone care to comment on this little nugget?

Buster_ESPN
It's all moving fast: As soon as Halladay deal is done, the Jays are going to trade Michael Taylor to Oakland for Brett Wallace.

[Da_Chief]

I think its a win-win-win for all 3 teams.

Jays needed to trade Doc, getting a top positional prospect + top pitching prospect is good.

If Wallace can stick it out at 3rd than the Jays have a really good infield developing with Lind at 1st and Hill at 2nd.

[Pagal4321]

Well looks like DJF has me covered on this Wallace kid....and it sounds pretty good.

Wallace was the best pure hitter in this year's draft, but fell to the Cardinals due to questions about his ultimate position. He's playing third base right now, and the Cardinals intend to keep him there until he plays himself off it; he has plenty of arm and is fine on balls in front of him, but lacks lateral range … severely. Still, his bat is so special that if he can improve to just a win below average at third, he'll be a star. He makes hitting look easy -- he hits lefties (.387/.479/.484 in 62 at bats last year) and righties, all pitches, all areas of the zone, whatever's thrown at him -- and has pull power to right and doubles power the other way. Sure, his body type is unusual for a pro baseball player -- he has enormous thighs, but it's muscle, not fat, and emphasizing that only detracts attention from what really matters: Brett Wallace will hit.

[flambers]

Nm

[flamesaresmokin]

The fact drabek has already had tommy john surgery this early in his career is a bit concerning.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

well, they are signing halladay for below market, and getting him at 1/2 of way below market for next season (or thereabouts). he was statistically better than lee last season in essentially every category. To lump the two as "aces" is not fair, and i don't see how what they did to acquire lee last season should affect this deal at all, that's a strange thing to add. I'm probaly just being all nostalgic and whatnot about our guy, but whatev...gotta trust in AA.

Lee is an "Ace" or a #1 pitcher for sure..... I believe the move was done as Lee would not sign an extension (speculation).

Lee ... won the Cy Young in Yr 2008 (over Halladay).

To view the trade the Philllies made they moved the following assets to acquire Halladay, Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, Juan Ramirez.

Jason Knapp, Jason Donald, Carlos Carrasco, Lou Marson (went to the Indians).

Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, Travis d'Arnaud (went to the Jays)

Cliff Lee (went to Seattle)

I placed the prospects in the thread as Lee came to the Phillies at a price. Which was done very recent (i.e late July).

Personally, I view this as very steep price to pay to basically upgrade a #1 pitcher.

As for the Contract Halladay has signed, I am not sure why this is an issue..... there is no way the Jays would have signed him.

Its either a trade or lose him for 2 picks.

[ben voyonsdonc]

I guess I have a team to cheer for in the NL...go Phillies! Halladay is a real class act through and through. He deserves to win and the Blue Jays just aren't competitive - with or without Halladay. He gave us a fighting shot every 5 games but didn't have the support needed to take the team further. The Phils definitely give Halladay a chance to win the World Series that Halladay deserves.

I remember in the late 90s and early 2000s when Halladay looked like he was going to be a bust. Instead, he went down to single A ball and rebuilt his entire delivery and the entire trajectory of career. It would have been easy for him to resist such change but, in the end, he just wanted to pitch well and win. Thankfully, his hard work paid off and we had several great years of watching the best in the business work his magic. Now he moves on to a team that gives him the legitimate shot at the Series that he deserves.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by flamesaresmokin

The fact drabek has already had tommy john surgery this early in his career is a bit concerning.

Maybe, but he has come back and shown the velocity he had prior to the procedure and still has a wicked curve ball. He did throw 158 innings last year and walked 50 guys. Whereas a guy like B.J. Ryan who was a bit older didn't come back with the same velocity or control he had prior to that procedure.