Good News for Supporters of the Return of the Winnipeg Jets!

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Kansas City - not likely, as the main player in the movement to bring a NHL franchise to KC is headed to prison for fraud. Additionally Kansas City failed miserably in it's first run with an NHL team. After the NFL Chiefs, there are really no sucessful pro sports franchise, as they have failed in the NBA and NHL, and the Royals are possibly the next MLB team to move to a different city, as they are losing money.

Anschutz is headed to prison? Really? You have an inside source or something? The former CEO of QWEST is in prison, but AEG is alive and kicking and there's no indications that anyone currently involved is off to prison.

It's also funny that Kansas City could be replaced with Winnipeg in your second sentence. Winnipeg had a better run than KC, but failure is failure. I don't really get how one failed market can call another failed market unqualified based on that.

And Winnipeg has no successful professional sports franchises, so you lose on that one too. And no, the Bombers don't count. Barely successful minor league teams do not count.

As for the Royals, they could move for sure, but to say they are the next team to move because they are losing money is ridiculous. There are plenty of teams in MLB losing money, even on miniscule payrolls, but there is nothing to indicate that any Royals move is at all imminent.

Making things up about other markets doesn't make Winnipeg look better, it just makes your argument look kind of desperate.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by valo403

Anschutz is headed to prison? Really? You have an inside source or something? The former CEO of QWEST is in prison, but AEG is alive and kicking and there's no indications that anyone currently involved is off to prison.

I was actually referring to'Boots' Del Biaggio, who if I am not mistaken wanted to move an existing team to the KC area. Not too sure Anschutz is, but if he is comtemplating bringing a team to KC, someone should knock some sense into him.

A couple of years ago, I came across a US business article on the internet, listing the 10 best and 10 worst cities to put a major sports franchise. Kansas City was #1 worst place to place a franchise, given their relatively small population base, and their history of not supporting teams. Surprisingly, Hartford came in at the #1 best place to put a pro sports team, given the fact that they have no current sports teams, and a very high average income base.

It's also funny that Kansas City could be replaced with Winnipeg in your second sentence. Winnipeg had a better run than KC, but failure is failure. I don't really get how one failed market can call another failed market unqualified based on that.

A few years ago, KC hyped an exhibiton game between the Blues and another NHL club for months. The promoters wanted to show the NHL that they could sellout the new arena, and send a message that KC was ready for NHL. Total attendance: 12,500.

And Winnipeg has no successful professional sports franchises, so you lose on that one too. And no, the Bombers don't count. Barely successful minor league teams do not count.

Bombers don't count, minor pro teams don't count, etc. etc. This is one of the most moronic rebuttals I have come across. Of course Winnipeg has no successful pro sports franchise. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY!!! How could we have any successful pro sports clubs when we haven't had any in 15 years?

As for the Royals, they could move for sure, but to say they are the next team to move because they are losing money is ridiculous. There are plenty of teams in MLB losing money, even on miniscule payrolls, but there is nothing to indicate that any Royals move is at all imminent.

Don't try to put words in my mouth. I said KC was possibly the next MLB team to move. Did I say they were definitely the next team to move?

Making things up about other markets doesn't make Winnipeg look better, it just makes your argument look kind of desperate.

And manipulating my post to imply I said things about a particular market when I never did makes you look so much better? I still find it amusing that you point out that Winnipeg currently has no successful pro sports franchises, when we have none to begin with. Maybe I should make an argument about how Okotoks should never get an NHL club since they have no pro sports teams.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Your team is going to move if it didn't get the financial support it needed and people in Winnipeg thought a protest would be a good idea to test them on that? What were they thinking? Normally if you want something to stay and it needs your support, you support it.

That right there shows why Winnipeg should never have a team again.

That wasn't a 'protest.' It was a "Save the Jets" rally at the Forks, designed to rally the community around saving our NHL team. I would hardly call it a "Protest." 35,000 people attended. Kids were donating their allowances to save the team. People were writing cheques to the grassroots campaign that was organized to help keep the team in Winnipeg. Unfortunately, the major players could not get their ducks in order until it was too late.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Not unless he changed his name to Kirk McLean he wasn't.

Sorry, he was one of the finalists. My bad. I should have been more specific.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

A few years ago, KC hyped an exhibiton game between the Blues and another NHL club for months. The promoters wanted to show the NHL that they could sellout the new arena, and send a message that KC was ready for NHL. Total attendance: 12,500.

I don't think exhibition attendance is a great indicator of future pro team success. Case in point, Winnipeg had 11,644 for their preseason game this past September.

[Jets4Life]

My god.

If I needed this kind of verbal beating from the anti-Jets camp, I would have just flew to Chicago, and became a guest of the "Steve Wilkos" show!!!

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

You're not sure who Anschutz is but you're an authority on why KC is a bad market? Interesting. Anschutz is the founder of AEG, the tiny little corporation that owns the Sprint Center and is a major player in the NHL. That's the group driving for a team to be in KC, Del Baggio was simply one potential owner of that team.

A source would be great. A couple of years ago I read an article about how real estate was a no lose investment strategy.

As pointed out by others, exhibition game attendance is a terrible indicator. Take a look at your own backyard.

You argued that KC is bad market because they don't have other pro sports teams outside of the Chiefs. Do you not see how asinine that argument is when the city you think should be getting a team has absolutely no other history of major professional sports?

The Yankees are possibly the next team to move. See how easy it is to just make something up.

Maybe you should make that argument, it would demonstrate how ridiculous your assessment of KC was.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

I too disagree with the $60 average ticket price. I honestly believe, for the Jets to succeed, a more accurate figure would be closer to $80. As for the low attendance, I assume you are talking about the 1995-96 season, when it was known before the season started the Jets were moving to Phoenix, so it's hard to get excited about a team about to pack up and head to Arizona.

Additionally, that was a year when the Oilers were barely averaging 12,000 a game, Calgary and Ottawa had thousands of empty seats, and Vancouver was losing money. Apathy, in regards to the NHL survival in Canadian cities was running high, and fans chose to stay away in protest.

Canadian team average attendance in 1995-96:
Montreal 18,233
Calgary 18,000
Vancouver 17,795
Toronto 15,729
Ottawa 13,245
Edmonton 12,335
Winnipeg 11,316

Montreal and Toronto were selling out, Calgary and Vancouver were strong, Ottawa was beginning a rapid trend upward both as the team improved and the Corel Centre opened that year and Edmonton had hit rock bottom, they were back up over 16,000 per game in 97-98.

As far as Daren Ford goes, he is a fool with a dream, but still just a fool. At least he's finally removed that ridiculous TV revenue stream he had on his charts where several thousand Jets fans would pay more than the cost of Centre Ice for a Jets only TV deal. Course, he just hid that by massively over-inflating both national and local TV revenue. I also have no clue how he thinks a smaller arena with lower average prices will generate more revenue from ticket sales than the Saddledome does. He's also pulled the VLT revenue number out of his ass (while failing to account for the taxes going back to the government), failed to account for whatever number of tickets that will be given away (every team does, though not necessarily a huge number) and he's mixed Canadian and American currencies so easily that the numbers become utterly meaningless. Not to mention that he's deliberately gone with absolute best case scenario on both revenues and expenses.

Corporate support would be no problem for us, as it would be a huge PR boost to support an NHL team in Winnipeg, and the AHL Moose have a huge waiting list for companies that want in on luxury suites. In fact, if I've heard correctly, the MTS Centre can be expanded to include a second ring of luxury suites.

When are you going to get it through your head that the AHL is not the NHL? Please show me the list of companies committed to paying the $ needed for an NHL luxury suite.

I just pray we see the return of NHL hockey in Winnipeg in the next decade. I believe it is far more likely than many people are willing to believe.

Lacking any concrete arguments, I suspect the only thing Jetsowners really have are prayers and dreams.

[Smell My Finger]

Bettman will not allow another additional Canadian team anywhere as long as he is calling all the shots. Every notion of another Canadian NHL team is nothing more than a hope and a prayer.
Unfortunatly.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Smell My Finger

Bettman will not allow another additional Canadian team anywhere as long as he is calling all the shots. Every notion of another Canadian NHL team is nothing more than a hope and a prayer.
Unfortunatly.

That could very well be true. But, to be quite honest, in my opinion. I do not care whether Winnipeg or any Canadian city gets an NHL franchise at all. If Phoenix was to relocate to an American city vs a Canadian one, good for them. It wouldnt matter to me.

I can see the rational behind any Canadian city wanting an NHL franchise, especially Winnipeg though, as the citizens in most cities in Canada will always want a Professional Sports team from a tier one type league, when they dont have one (and as previous posters mentioned, and I agree, the Bombers and CFL dont count). I just cant see it happening anytime soon.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

God Winnipeg is annoying. Shutup about your lack of an NHL team.

Yeah, no kiddin'. This is a Flames forum, not a frickin forum for black flies.

[Jets4Life]

First off, I would just like to say I'm a big Flames fan. I lived in Calgary for almost 2 years, and I love the city and it's people. I wore a Jets cap I bought at a sports store, and on occasion the good citizens of Cowtown would stop me, and say "awesome Cap" or "I miss the Jets, they reallty deserve a team back!" I even would run into transplanted Winnipeggers, and they would chat me up about our native city.

Calgary is a first class city, and perhaps the finest city in Canada. Having said this, I cannot in words, describe my disappointment in some members of Calgarypuck. The majority of people posting here are good people, but unfortunately there is a small minority that seem to take great pleasure in trying everything in their power to mock the believers. It's sad, really. People have hopes and dreams, and that is what makes people interesting.

It's a shame a few of the CP posters seem to take pride in crapping all over the idea of the Return of NHL hockey to Winnipeg. It makes one wonder what kind of people they are in real life if they crap all over someone's dream. They must lead fairly sad lives.

I don't really understand how the idea of a return of NHL hockey to a similiar sizes (slightly smaller) NHL city offends a few CP members so greatly. I've even heard a number of cracks about the city of Winnipeg. Luckily I have a sense of humor, and dismiss it.

I sure hope and pray the Jets return in the next decade. However if that fails to happen, then I'll cheer for the Flames. It' as simple as that. So for all the haters (HOOT, Resolute14, valo403,the2bears, Locke, J pold, etc.), I'm sorry the return of NHL in Canadian cities bothers you so much. So until the Jets return, I have one thing to say:



GO FLAMES GO!!!

[Joborule]

I don't think people are hating on the prospect of Winnipeg getting a team back. I don't see why it would effect us negatively in anyway and I'm sure most of us would love to see more Canadian teams in the league. However we aren't getting caught up in the prospect too much and being realistic about the chances of Winnipeg getting a NHL franchise back within a few years that can be sustained long term. It's not a very prospective chance from a business and NHL standpoint, when you also factor in the other available cities the NHL can explore first.

[TheU]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

First off, I would just like to say I'm a big Flames fan. I lived in Calgary for almost 2 years, and I love the city and it's people. I wore a Jets cap I bought at a sports store, and on occasion the good citizens of Cowtown would stop me, and say "awesome Cap" or "I miss the Jets, they reallty deserve a team back!" I even would run into transplanted Winnipeggers, and they would chat me up about our native city.

Calgary is a first class city, and perhaps the finest city in Canada. Having said this, I cannot in words, describe my disappointment in some members of Calgarypuck. The majority of people posting here are good people, but unfortunately there is a small minority that seem to take great pleasure in trying everything in their power. It's sad, really. People have hopes and dreams, and that is what makes people interesting.

It's a shame a few of the CP posters seem to take pride in crapping all over the idea of the Return of NHL hockey to Winnipeg. It makes one wonder what kind of people they are in real life if they crap all over someone's dream. They must lead fairly sad lives.

I don't really understand how the idea of a return of NHL hockey to a similiar sizes (slightly smaller) NHL city offends a few CP members so greatly. I've even heard a number of cracks about the city of Winnipeg. Luckily I have a sense of humor, and dismiss it.

I sure hope and pray the Jets return in the next decade. However if that fails to happen, then I'll cheer for the Flames. It' as simple as that. So for all the haters (HOOT, Resolute14, valo403,the2bears, Locke, J pold, etc.), I'm sorry the return of NHL in Canadian cities bothers you so much. So until the Jets return, I have one thing to say:

Good post. I honestly can't wait for the Jets to come back, it will be an amazing moment. That's my dream... and all these people doing their best to try and dump on it don't effect me very much, aside from the obvious disappointment.

If the Flames were playing in 15k seat arena built in the 40's in the 90's, they'd be gone. If Bettman didn't step in personally and nix a a deal to send the Oil to Houston, we would have ZERO Alberta teams. Yet some of these posters are acting is if it's never been in doubt

[the2bears]

Being realistic now equals being a "hater". Ok, I'm fine with that. I'm just not enough of a sycophant to immediately jump on this Jets return is destined bandwagon.

This is obviously an emotional subject and I can understand that. Personally, I would be fine with a team back in Winnipeg. I grew up watching the Smythe division. I just don't see it happening, though. You want to air your dreams out on a public forum? By all means, but what were you expecting?

Here's what I don't get: How can a 15,000 seat arena can make enough revenue based on a reasonable ticket price? How much more will corporate boxes cost to an NHL game compared with the Moose and are there really going to be enough companies willing to pay for them then?

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by TheU

If Bettman didn't step in personally and nix a a deal to send the Oil to Houston, we would have ZERO Alberta teams. Yet some of these posters are acting is if it's never been in doubt

This is a fabricated lie..

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by TheU

Good post. I honestly can't wait for the Jets to come back, it will be an amazing moment.

I can't wait either because they'd probably toss them into our division and it would essentially give us twelve free points a year.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Being realistic now equals being a "hater". Ok, I'm fine with that. I'm just not enough of a sycophant to immediately jump on this Jets return is destined bandwagon.

Pretty much.

Like I said: convince me it will work.

There isn't a single ad hominem attack or appeal to emotion argument that can overcome the serious financial issues that plague Winnipeg's long term viability as an NHL market. Certainly it would be an exciting thing to have the Jets return, and they would undoubtedly sell out every night, win or lose, for a couple of seasons. But when that bloom wears off, how will the market fare? ESPECIALLY if the new Jets suck exactly as the old Jets did?

Truth be told, J4L, I hope you get what you want. I also hope that the city somehow proves it can sustain the NHL long term. But don't sit there and pretend the arguments we have made are not serious challenges that the Winnipeg market would face. You may choose to bury your head in the sand. Many of us do not.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

I think most are in the boat that they'd like to see a team in Winnipeg, but cannot see it happening. Because you don't think something will happen, doesn't mean you don't want it to happen.

Basically here are the hurdles:

1. Size of the rink. At 15,000 capacity is there going to be enough revenue from ticket sales?

2. Ticket Prices. I believe the owner of the bring back the Jets website was quoted as saying an average ticket price of $60. Is that going to be enough? People here are thinking $90 is more realistic to make it go.

3. Luxury Boxes. Does the MTS Centre have enough? Consensus seems to be no, however Jets fans are using the argument the arena is capable of expansion, and there's currently a 5 year wait list for current boxes. That argument was countered with AHL pricing and NHL pricing are different. This has been the best argument for the Jets fans thus far, but it at a stalemate as no one has brought up fiscal numbers as of yet. How much are boxes currently going for at the MTS Centre? What's the NHL average? What would Winnipeg have to charge for them?

4. Rink Expansion. This hasn't been fully flushed out. How many luxury boxes can be added? If you can add luxury boxes, can you add seats? I've never been, I don't really know the dimensions, so all these questions might have easy answers but as an outsider I'm legitimately asking.

5. Other Options. Are there other cities that would be a better fit for the NHL? Portland, Huston, Las Vegas, Seattle, Kansas City, Hamilton? Just because Winnipeg wants a team, doesn't mean they'll be the NHL's first choice. What would put Winnipeg ahead of the curve? What would hold it back? How would it over come these obstacles?

6. Long Term Viability/Population. Why would it work long term? Could it? There isn't much doubt that Winnipeg would be the NHL's smallest market. But is it enough to make a push? Could they be Saskatchewan and Northern Ontario's team? Can their market be that broad? Perhaps the Manitoba Jets, or Prairie Jets (try and use the Golden State, or New England marketing idea).

7. Comparison between other Teams. Lastly the arguments that I've seen (at least from memory without going back and taking notes) deals with comparing Winnipeg to current teams. But team X only draws 12,000 we'd draw more. Perhaps, but if making a comparison I think it'd be fair to compare to the league average as opposed to teams directly. Sure you might out draw Phoenix or Tampa Bay, but why would you want to shift from 6 in one hand to half a dozen in the other? How would Winnipeg stack up against the average teams in the league. Winnipeg/Calgary, and Winnipeg/Phoenix just wouldn't be fair analogies. Let's average and see how they stack up.

8. TV Revenue. This was briefly touched upon. What kind of TV deal would Winnipeg get? They'll have their share of the national games sure. But regional games? They'd be entering into a market with Calgary and Edmonton for Rogers SportsNet West wouldn't they? Who else would show the games and get the exposure needed?


So. Jets fans, Jets haters/realistic dreamers, answer the above eight questions, support your arguments and let's see. Small markets can work, but there are more hurdles to jump. I don't want to hear "Canada is Hockey" or "We stopped going because the lease in Arizona was already signed" or whatever. I want numbers, and facts.

Really, all 8 arguments have numerical backgrounds. So if you're answering without numbers you're failing to answer the question completely or correctly.

Again, I want to see Winnipeg win this argument. Alas, I don't think they will, but prove me wrong.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

It's possible to add more seats to the MTS Centre, but at the end of the day you're paying millions to add in seats which will be the least expensive in the building.

Personally, I think 15,000 is a good number for Winnipeg. Sure it's low compared to the rest of the NHL but demand is such an important thing to have. It's the reason the Moose close off the upper bowl even if they sell out the 8,812 in the lower bowl (with the exception of 3 or 4 special games throughout the year).

The biggest issue in my opinion is sponsorship dollars. Can they get to the $20 to $30 million per year that Calgary and Edmonton have? If the answer is yes, they can make it happen. In order to help this, they would probably need to have the same TV deal as Edmonton where they sell the ad space. As for TV time, I talked to someone at Sportsnet a few years back and he mentioned that if Winnipeg ever got an NHL team they'd probably split into Rogers Sportsnet Alberta and Rogers Sportsnet Central.