Is the kick returner suppose to count players before as well? I know the kicker/punter always counts before snapping the ball?
I believe the returner usually counts for the defence.
Like I said earlier I consider the last play irrelevant. How did we let Calvillo and the Als march down with like 20s left anyway. All it would have taken is a single sack or a tackle short of a first down or some actual defence that would have stopped the drive.
Location: Close enough to make a beer run during a TV timeout
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Originally Posted by Jason14h
Is the kick returner suppose to count players before as well? I know the kicker/punter always counts before snapping the ball?
Once again- who is to say he didn't?
If he did, he couldn't call a timeout. (IIRC it was used on the last 2 point convert attempt.) So his only hope would be to pray the refs miss a guy and let the play continue.
And for all you Sask fans, it is possible that Montreal's kicker saw all the flags; assumed it was proceedure (and the play was dead) and that threw off his timing. So had they only had 12 guys on the field; it may have been the same result.
If he did, he couldn't call a timeout. (IIRC it was used on the last 2 point convert attempt.) So his only hope would be to pray the refs miss a guy and let the play continue.
And for all you Sask fans, it is possible that Montreal's kicker saw all the flags; assumed it was proceedure (and the play was dead) and that threw off his timing. So had they only had 12 guys on the field; it may have been the same result.
To the first point, he could have tried to get off the field. I believe he isn't allowed to just jump out the back of the endzone, he would have had to get to the Rider's sideline but it is conceivable he may have been able to get off if he would have done his job properly and counted. Sad that a totally inconsequential play cost the Riders the Grey Cup.
As for the second point, possible but unlikely. The flags weren't thrown until after the ball was snapped. Even if it did it is a moot point. Who cares if the flags threw off his timing? How could that matter in any way shape or form. Flags happen on almost every single play in the CFL. Has anyone thought about all the thousands of plays throughout the years where a players timing might have been thrown off by a flag? No, and for obvious reasons.
It all depends on the call made on the sidelines. Armstead obviously thought they called a return, someone on the line thought they called a block. The block would have been the right call but they haven't said what was called so until they do (which they probably won't) no one will know who was the extra guy. My money is on Armstead.
That said I really only have one question about this Grey Cup. Who the heck picked Blue Rodeo for the Halftime show???!!??
The special teams said he called block but will not single out any player, and took the blame.
To the first point, he could have tried to get off the field. I believe he isn't allowed to just jump out the back of the endzone, he would have had to get to the Rider's sideline but it is conceivable he may have been able to get off if he would have done his job properly and counted. Sad that a totally inconsequential play cost the Riders the Grey Cup.
As for the second point, possible but unlikely. The flags weren't thrown until after the ball was snapped. Even if it did it is a moot point. Who cares if the flags threw off his timing? How could that matter in any way shape or form. Flags happen on almost every single play in the CFL. Has anyone thought about all the thousands of plays throughout the years where a players timing might have been thrown off by a flag? No, and for obvious reasons.
He could have tried, but there's not a chance that he makes it. He had to go around 40 yds at least, so we're talking around 5 seconds from the time he starts moving. An offence is taught to snap the ball when a guy starts sprinting off the field, and 5 seconds to do so is pretty generous even for a field goal unit. The odds of him making it off before the snap are about as good as the officials missing the count.
Like I said earlier I consider the last play irrelevant. How did we let Calvillo and the Als march down with like 20s left anyway. All it would have taken is a single sack or a tackle short of a first down or some actual defence that would have stopped the drive.
Fact is they let the game slip away. There were many times in the last 1/4 where they could have made key plays and didn't. With a 16 point lead the game was theirs for the taking.
The special teams said he called block but will not single out any player, and took the blame.
But it was armstead.
Armstead has said he was supposed to be out there. Regardless of whether that's true or not, the fact that a block was called doesn't mean he wasn't supposed to be out there. There are many different block formations, I actually don't recall seeing one without a man deep, so unless you've got the playbook and the play call this doesn't mean anything.
He could have tried, but there's not a chance that he makes it. He had to go around 40 yds at least, so we're talking around 5 seconds from the time he starts moving. An offence is taught to snap the ball when a guy starts sprinting off the field, and 5 seconds to do so is pretty generous even for a field goal unit. The odds of him making it off before the snap are about as good as the officials missing the count.
Really? You know he wouldn't have made it?
If he counted when he should have (right as he took the field) he would have had several seconds to get off the field. Or if someone noticed on the sidelines.
You're not the first person I've talked to who assumes that the Riders' bench and the guys on the field could not have noticed until Mtl was just about to kick the ball. The play wasn't quite as quick as you think. Just because you can't tell on the TV because they only show the kick doesn't mean there wasn't 15 seconds before that when they called the play, took the field and waited 10 seconds. This assumption that what you see on TV is all there is, is false. There was plenty of time well before that for Armstead to leave the field.
Fact is they let the game slip away. There were many times in the last 1/4 where they could have made key plays and didn't. With a 16 point lead the game was theirs for the taking.
Yeah, the final kick meant nothing. We should have been ahead by 20 anyways. If the offence or defence would have shown up in the 4th we'd be GC champs right now.
If he counted when he should have (right as he took the field) he would have had several seconds to get off the field. Or if someone noticed on the sidelines.
You're not the first person I've talked to who assumes that the Riders' bench and the guys on the field could not have noticed until Mtl was just about to kick the ball. The play wasn't quite as quick as you think. Just because you can't tell on the TV because they only show the kick doesn't mean there wasn't 15 seconds before that when they called the play, took the field and waited 10 seconds. This assumption that what you see on TV is all there is, is false. There was plenty of time well before that for Armstead to leave the field.
I agree with you. Coaches are supposed to be calm in these situations. The entire Riders bench was in a panic and cold sweat that they had choked away the lead and were in this situation. As I mentioned, Miller didn't even watch the kick so how could he know who was on the field?
And it wasn't only the last play, the Riders coaching staff was in total meltdown the last 10 minutes.. everything that could go wrong did.
PS: When I saw the flags I thought it was pyramiding! That would have been even funnier!
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Last edited by GirlySports; 11-30-2009 at 12:22 PM.
If he counted when he should have (right as he took the field) he would have had several seconds to get off the field. Or if someone noticed on the sidelines.
You're not the first person I've talked to who assumes that the Riders' bench and the guys on the field could not have noticed until Mtl was just about to kick the ball. The play wasn't quite as quick as you think. Just because you can't tell on the TV because they only show the kick doesn't mean there wasn't 15 seconds before that when they called the play, took the field and waited 10 seconds. This assumption that what you see on TV is all there is, is false. There was plenty of time well before that for Armstead to leave the field.
I forgot who I was talking too, rational conversation is out the window.
It would have taken at least 5 seconds to get off the field, so unless he did the count immediately after getting in position he would have had little chance. It's hard to do a count that early as the guys on the line aren't set, you wind up double counting when guys move but it should have been done that early. Even then he has to get there before Mtl gets set and notices a guy sprinting to the bench. That's an automatic snap situation, you're taught to get the ball off ASAP in that situation so the whole play is going to be accelerated.
So ya, thanks for pointing out the obvious. If he noticed an extra guy 20 seconds before the snap he could have made it. Thanks for that brilliant contribution. Problem is I was talking about reality, where he obviously didn't pick it up until late if at all.
I have it on good authority that the Riders will be getting back to basics and utilizing the use of a video that will be mandatory for all players and coaches to watch prior to each game next season.
I did some digging around and managed to find a copy of it so we can see what they're up to.
Short and sweet and to the point, but I imagine it'll be effective.
Here you go...
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I forgot who I was talking too, rational conversation is out the window.
It would have taken at least 5 seconds to get off the field, so unless he did the count immediately after getting in position he would have had little chance. It's hard to do a count that early as the guys on the line aren't set, you wind up double counting when guys move but it should have been done that early. Even then he has to get there before Mtl gets set and notices a guy sprinting to the bench. That's an automatic snap situation, you're taught to get the ball off ASAP in that situation so the whole play is going to be accelerated.
So ya, thanks for pointing out the obvious. If he noticed an extra guy 20 seconds before the snap he could have made it. Thanks for that brilliant contribution. Problem is I was talking about reality, where he obviously didn't pick it up until late if at all.
If MTL showed up in the first half it would have been a cake walk.
Well, the Riders settled for FGs far too often. If Mtl would have woken up earlier it could have been a lot like the Riders-Stamps West Final. As I was watching the game I thought Mtl was going to do the same as the Riders did a week earlier but Calvillo just couldn't convert. When the 4th rolled around the Riders just couldn't hold him off any longer. If Durant and the offense could have gotten even a few singles from punts or something the Riders maybe win because Calvillo only turned it on late. He might have run out of time before they could have caught up.
I'd be very curious to see the wide view camera and see exactly how this last play broke down: how many men were in the huddle (presumably just 12, since otherwise the play would have been blown dead and '13 in the huddle' would have been called), who was substituted on and off, and how much time Armstead had to count. Of course such footage exists and there are tens of thousands of football fans who want to see it, but it wouldn't surprise me if TSN declined to show it to protect the identity of the player at fault.
Riders fans are still trying to figure out who the 13th man was. They have figured out exactly who was on the field for the first FG attempt and figure whoever was not on for the 2nd attempt was at fault.
But the TSN camera showed the 2nd try from behind the kicker instead of the Sask. side of the line so it seems impossible to figure out.
