The difference between civilization and primitivism

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yeah, but what lasting change? To what purpose? History shouldn't be revolutionary. It's just the cataloguing of human stories. I don't want multiple lenses, because I don't believe that I even have the slightest comprehension of one perspective, let alone multiple ones. People are damn lazy. All of this new cultural relativism is just a way for people to avoid asking the hard questions.

Like how the heck does colonialism have anything to do with black Africans butchering albino Africans for their genitals to use as magical talismans? I don't think that they are animals, just primitive. Why? On a personal level, I could (and have) spent a meal with an African person laughing, telling stories, and exchanging personal views like any other human being. Why is their cultural/political order so profoundly putrid?

I'll start with your second paragraph first. The rants started to off topic when a broad statement on a whole continent was made. So you're right we're off task here if your OP was only to talk about the link in question.


I don't see being cultural relative as a way to avoid tough questions. Hell, I think it makes one wrestle with even more. Just look at what a mess the United Nations can be (a topic for another thread). I'm sensing that you more strongly identify with a modernist perspective. Which I find much cleaner personally. But I've been raised with a healthy dose of post-modernism. So while its alleged lack of truth I find unsettling, it still seems to permeate and fester in a lot of my views.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yeah, but what lasting change? To what purpose? History shouldn't be revolutionary. It's just the cataloguing of human stories. I don't want multiple lenses, because I don't believe that I even have the slightest comprehension of one perspective, let alone multiple ones. People are damn lazy. All of this new cultural relativism is just a way for people to avoid asking the hard questions.

Like how the heck does colonialism have anything to do with black Africans butchering albino Africans for their genitals to use as magical talismans? I don't think that they are animals, just primitive. Why? On a personal level, I could (and have) spent a meal with an African person laughing, telling stories, and exchanging personal views like any other human being. Why is their cultural/political order so profoundly putrid?

You asked what type of society lets that happen. I think a society handicapped by the effects of colonial rule doesn't have the tools to educate, prevent, or punish these types of atrocities.

But lets say it is something that is just part of the culture, and "they" are primitive. What was the excuse of the Nazi Germans for slaughtering millions of jews? Were they primitive as well?

Sometimes humans do horrible things. In every corner of the globe. It could be ignorance, fear, or pure hatred.

You are seemingly trying to make an argument that the people of Africa are somehow less evolved humans than us. I think thats where people take offense.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You asked what type of society lets that happen. I think a society handicapped by the effects of colonial rule doesn't have the tools to educate, prevent, or punish these types of atrocities.

But lets say it is something that is just part of the culture, and "they" are primitive. What was the excuse of the Nazi Germans for slaughtering millions of jews? Were they primitive as well?

Sometimes humans do horrible things. In every corner of the globe. It could be ignorance, fear, or pure hatred.

You are seemingly trying to make an argument that the people of Africa are somehow less evolved humans than us. I think thats where people take offense.

Absolutely. Although I think it's different, but somehow the same. When politics is the domain of knaves and fools, this is the result we get. I was struck by something the other day. In a twisted way, the Final Solution was a brilliant piece of organization. The amount of techonological and logistic innovation that went into it was amazing. The thing was, its purpose was to eliminate 60 000 Jews a day. Not only is that incredibly evil, it's stupid. Imagine if that effort had been placed elsewhere?

Evil is often combined with a malevolent and almost childlike stupidity.

How can Africans be "less-evolved" than we are. We're of the same genetic stock. As you said, the so-called master race committed even worse crimes.

What I was trying to do was set out on a real discussion of what civilization is and what primitivism is, not engage in a series of meaningless polemic debates on liberal hurt feelings and perceived racism.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by peter12

Absolutely. Although I think it's different, but somehow the same. When politics is the domain of knaves and fools, this is the result we get. I was struck by something the other day. In a twisted way, the Final Solution was a brilliant piece of organization. The amount of techonological and logistic innovation that went into it was amazing. The thing was, its purpose was to eliminate 60 000 Jews a day. Not only is that incredibly evil, it's stupid. Imagine if that effort had been placed elsewhere?

Evil is often combined with a malevolent and almost childlike stupidity.

How can Africans be "less-evolved" than we are. We're of the same genetic stock. As you said, the so-called master race committed even worse crimes.

What I was trying to do was set out on a real discussion of what civilization is and what primitivism is, not engage in a series of meaningless polemic debates on liberal hurt feelings and perceived racism.

Fair enough...if we do say that "Africans" as a whole have generally more primitive cultural behaviours than us (I don't necessarily agree, but lets go with it), do you think that their struggles with colonialism might have affected their ability to modernize or become less culturaly primitive?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Fair enough...if we do say that "Africans" as a whole have generally more primitive cultural behaviours than us (I don't necessarily agree, but lets go with it), do you think that their struggles with colonialism might have affected their ability to modernize or become less culturaly primitive?

I don't think that Africans are animals, so no, I don't think that colonialism is still a valid general excuse civlization's feeble grasp on the certain parts of the continent. They have an ability to take hold and change things like other human beings. The difference is the strength of their cultures and civil societies. And don't get me wrong, we Westerners are in no great shape either.

I'm not sure what it is, to be honest. The West's indifference? The ravages of Marxism?

Do we have a duty to overtly attempt to intervene?

[driveway]

The fundamental problem which leads to these horrible acts is a lack of education.

The question then needs to be asked: Why is there a lack of education in Africa and how can this problem be addressed?

The answer to both parts of that question is a single word: Money.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

Oh man, I honestly don't know why there is so much hostility towards peter12 in this thread. This question I quoted is exactly what he wanted this thread to be about. If he knew the answer to this phenomenon wouldn't he have written it down? Hell, if he knew the solution and could carry it through, he would be world famous and maybe win a nobel peace prize. There isn't a single solution to this problem however. Is cannibalism even a problem? The point I'm trying to make is that there seem to be some straw man arguments floating around in this thread where none of them seem to have anything to do with the posed question.

It's probably due to the fact that if it weren't the posture of intellectual outrage and corresponding condescension, peter12 likely wouldn't have much to post. It's wholly predictable and tiring. Couple that condescension with the fact that it's an interesting topic he presumably raised for discussion, and you have to wonder why he even bothered.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by peter12

I don't think that Africans are animals

Not a week ago I saw one of the most disturbing shows I ever saw in my life by the BBC. One peticular scene showed a jeep with four guys pull up to a house(shack), pull the man and wife with their 2 young kids outside and hack the four of them to pieces with machetes in front of the rest of the village.they made the wife watch first her husband and then the kids before doing her and then left the body parts on the road for the villagers to pick up and bury.Threw all of this they were laughing.

In a sense of evolution the people might not be animals but the culture that teaches them makes them worst than any animal I ever seen or heard of. Even Hitlers death squads showed more remorse than these idiots, so much so that's one of the reasons the Germans built the gas chambers.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by fatso

It's probably due to the fact that if it weren't the posture of intellectual outrage and corresponding condescension, peter12 likely wouldn't have much to post. It's wholly predictable and tiring. Couple that condescension with the fact that it's an interesting topic he presumably raised for discussion, and you have to wonder why he even bothered.

Give me a break. This is just another form of condescenion, although somehow parroting as some sort of noble disdain. And that last part is certainly right.

[sclitheroe]

Four pages in, and there it is: Hitler. "Lurking in every thread since the invention of Usenet" (tm)

[T@T]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Four pages in, and there it is: Hitler. "Lurking in every thread since the invention of Usenet" (tm)

And before that invention he was talked about over coffee and donuts.

Hitler = most famous nut case in history,as long as people populate this planet he will be talked about.

[photon]

Genetically speaking there's less difference between whoever's sitting at a keyboard reading this and any individual in Africa and two chimps who live in the same tree.

So it's nothing to do with that.

I agree with driveway, education is a key factor.. how can people become more than they are if they don't even know there is more, let alone that they can become more.

The individuals aren't broken, their society is.

[transplant99]

Am i wrong to believe that it is virtually impossible to comment/discuss/opine about anything to do with Africa and its multitude of problems on every level, without it becoming somehow inextricably linked to colonialism and ultimately slavery??

I mean it just isnt on this board, or other boards, its in real life conversations. I think it is one of single largest barriers to allowing people to become educated and moving forward thinking wise...because all that ever happens is it goes backward to what happened.

Just a personal observation.

[amorak]

I don't think you can simply blame colonialism - precolonial Africa was a place rampant with inter-tribe rape, pillage and cannibalism. Africa, due to issues much deeper rooted than colonialism, is a very ed up place.

[Clarkey]

Peter, I think you've been reading too much Tom Flanagan.

[CheckRaise]

Didn't have the time to go over the entire thread, or whether this has been discussed in another thread, but the OP reminded me of something that happened in Cambodea a few years back.
http://www.newturfers.com/mwf/attach...Ring-Fight.htm

Lion Mutilates 42 Midgets in Cambodian Ring-Fight.


Spectators cheered as entire Cambodian Midget Fighting League squared off against African Lion

Apologies if this is red hot FATA.

EDIT: Apparently the article is a fake, sorry. http://lionvs40midgets.uk-directory.com/

[VladtheImpaler]

This thread is quite amusing. As a (former) historian, I am a little surprised to find out that it's the fault of Victorian Englishmen that Africans are chopping up and eating their neighbours. Well, I guess you live you learn...

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by TheU

Don't try and suck me back in. Africa is a waking nightmare for humanity right now, like it or not

Having traveled to about 14 African countries within the past year, I can certainly assure you that this isn't true. Maybe you just need to get out a bit? Do some traveling? It's actually in most parts a basically nice place, like you'd find anywhere else in the world.

And the people? Fully evolved, from what I could tell.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

This thread is quite amusing. As a (former) historian, I am a little surprised to find out that it's the fault of Victorian Englishmen that Africans are chopping up and eating their neighbours. Well, I guess you live you learn...

No one is suggesting that is the only reason. Just that you can't easily dimiss its impacts completely. Oh and if we're talking about Africa it wasn't just Britan that carved it up. But you knew that.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

No one is suggesting that is the only reason. Just that you can't easily dimiss its impacts completely. Oh and if we're talking about Africa it wasn't just Britan that carved it up. But you knew that.

How is at any reason?! Yeah, I guess I heard those stories about my great-, great-, great-grandfather being in Antwerpen in 1884, and seeing an Englishman and a Belgian sitting at a table eating a roasted Frenchman. Clearly, those evil imperialist colonizers contributed to the spread of neighbour-eating in Africa...