Road to South Africa World Cup 2010

[Locke]

Originally Posted by The Goon

From reading this thread, it seems like the only two countries worth watching in RSA 2010 are England and Portugal. No love for Spain? Netherlands? Brazil?

...New Zealand?

I'll be watching most of the big names, namely Germany and Brazil, but I love watching the Netherlands, I honestly thought they were going to take Euro 08, but that ridiculous choke job was horrible to watch.

England is very overhyped, but I do agree that this is likely the best squad they've fielded in quite a while, I have no particular love for England, actually a bunch of the guys on my soccer team are English so they really beat you over the head with it, which is fine as I support Germany...

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Locke

England is very overhyped, but I do agree that this is likely the best squad they've fielded in quite a while,

Maybe, the FA has finally got it right after years of bypassing straight-talking honest, salt of the earth men that understood the game, but weren't yes men like Clough and Charlton for the likes of (disabled people have sinned)Hoddle, Wilkinson, the melt down Keegan, Steve McLaren.

It's nice that they've got a manager but IMO (and truth be told) they would have progressed a lot further in competitions past if the suits in the FA would succumb to their job descriptions and let a manager ... manage.

I refer you to Brian Clough, and what he achieved from the ground up and his aspirations to manage England

How is it any better in talent to those past?

A previous poster compared the team at the moment to the one in the past.

FACT IS ... they're great PL players but apart from Lineker, Liam Brady, Beckham, not one single English player has shown the ability to adapt and succed to a foreign way of playing the sport.

[Bagor]

And for the record and it's a bit of a pet peeve.

It's the world cup use it as an exercise to educate kids.

It's Huh'analdo, Huh'analdino and Ho'mario.

Hio de Janeioro.

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Originally Posted by rubecube

How about we use current history, as in England qualified for the World Cup with ease, and Portugal had to slink by Bosnia-Herzegovina. If Englad supporters are like Leafs fans, then Portugal fans are like Canucks fans. Years and years of ineptitude, followed by a brief glimpses of success but no actual championships, yet they crow like they've actually done something noteworthy.

Tell me exactly what Portugal supporters have to be proud of? The Portuguese hype around Ronaldo is almost Luongo-esque. Fitting since they both do the same amount of diving.



So then I guess Korea is a better team than Italy?



Really? Because I can think of several little differences between the past England squads you mentioned and the current squad, plus one big one (Capello).

Portugal fans know their place. They don't revel in their past because they know they don't have a good one. They have only come to prominence over the last decade and they've had good results this decade. 1 EURO Final, 1 EURO Semi final, 1 WC Semi Final, 1 Euro QTR Final......the only blemish was 2002 where they didn't make it out of the 1st round of a EASY group.

What do we have to be proud of?? If you can only be proud of titles, then that's your opinion, fine. But I think we can be proud of a tiny nation with a very sad history in football doing so well over the last ten years. We can be proud that we have made every major tournament this decade. No, we have no titles to back it up, so what, we should just lay down and die?? Portugal doesn't have the history, the money and the support that the perennial powerhouses have. Should Croatia fans not be proud of their team because they have no titles?? Should Bulgaria fans not be proud of their team because they have no titles?? Only one team can win, and Christ, you only get a chance to win a major title every two years!

Portuguese hype around Ronaldo???? How about world wide hype?? How about the fact that he's won world player of the year?? How about the fact that he will be the runner up for it this year?? How about the fact that he's been an intrical part in Portugal's good results of the last 6 years?? How about the fact that he has had an enormous impact on Portuguese football?? You may not like him and what he represents and that's fine, but his impact to the sport in undeniable.




By the way, Korea beat Italy in Extra time, not on penalties.

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Originally Posted by valo403

Barely, there are a few players that have carried over but neither squad is even a shadow of the team from 04. Different captains, different coaches, different tactics, different players, vastly different teams.

Picking and choosing which history is valid to be talked about is ridiculous. It's either valid or it isn't. England's historical domination of Portugal has just as little bearing on any future matchup as the the matches of 04 and 06.

Ronaldo, Deco, Carvalho, Simao

Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Cole, Terry

Those are KEY players on both teams. It does have some bearing.....not a lot, but the argument is relatively valid.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

There is no one team that is more consistently overrated and overhyped than England. Everything in the Western media is about England. All the sideshow bs of who has changed their haircut, who's dating who, what someone said in practice. They dominate all soccer shows and news telecasts. And it is completely underserving. They have done nothing, to warrant being mentioned so much beyond the fact that they are 'England.'

I present you the Toronto Maple Leafs.

What a stunner, I mean who would think that the only top contender from an English speaking nation would be the team that we always hear about in the English speaking press. I'm sure we'd hear lots about Holland, Germany, Portugal etc. if not for that pesky language difference. No Canadian/American mainstream media outlet has reporters covering the game, they simply bite bits and pieces from other coverage, and I'm doubting that there's much of a budget for translation.

If you want to actually think about it, which I doubt, you'd see that the coverage of English teams is completely sensical.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by VANFLAMESFAN

Ronaldo, Deco, Carvalho, Simao

Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Cole, Terry

Those are KEY players on both teams. It does have some bearing.....not a lot, but the argument is relatively valid.

Go back a page and read the post by diane, it demonstrates perfectly why the comparison is ridiculous.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

and the key pieces of England from 04 and 06 are drastically improved at this point

Rooney has gone from a solid striker to one of the top 5 in the world, and maybe the one with the most all around game. i.e he may not score as much as Torres but he is more of a box to box player

Lampard and Gerrard are both in their prime.

Lennon is miles ahead of where he was at the 06 world cup, and even further ahead of where Beckham was in 06.

Gareth Barry is a huge upgrade over Hargreaves/Carrick.

Glen Johnson is a massive upgrade over Gary Neville and gives the English team an attacking option at both RB and LB.

The Goaltending will be better than Paul Robinson was, that is a given.

The subs for attacking options they can bring on are all improved as well, and Capello won't be stupid like Sven to invite a 16 year old who had never played higher than league 2 as the 4th striker (especially when the 1st and 2nd striker were injured)

The only spot where they are not improved may be at CB, Rio Ferdinand is having a terrible season so far but if he gets back to his form of last year than him and Terry will be solid as a rock.

and in a potential match with Portugal just look at how Ashley Cole has handled Ronaldo over the last few seasons, just suffocated his offense or forced him to switch to the other side where he is far less effective

I agree with most of this, but I don't see Barry as a massive upgrade over a healthy and in form Hargreaves. Hargreaves has been England's best player a number of times in the recent past, and he's a natural for the holding midfield ball-winner role. The big caveat of course is the healthy and in form part, I'm not sure he's going to be there by July.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by VANFLAMESFAN

Portugal fans know their place. They don't revel in their past because they know they don't have a good one. They have only come to prominence over the last decade and they've had good results this decade. 1 EURO Final, 1 EURO Semi final, 1 WC Semi Final, 1 Euro QTR Final......the only blemish was 2002 where they didn't make it out of the 1st round of a EASY group.

Hence the comparison to Canucks fans.

What do we have to be proud of?? If you can only be proud of titles, then that's your opinion, fine. But I think we can be proud of a tiny nation with a very sad history in football doing so well over the last ten years. We can be proud that we have made every major tournament this decade. No, we have no titles to back it up, so what, we should just lay down and die?? Portugal doesn't have the history, the money and the support that the perennial powerhouses have. Should Croatia fans not be proud of their team because they have no titles?? Should Bulgaria fans not be proud of their team because they have no titles?? Only one team can win, and Christ, you only get a chance to win a major title every two years!

Being proud is one thing. Piping off at a country with a football tradition that is both richer and more successful than yours is what gets you in trouble.

That's not directed at you, since I technically started this. I just know a bunch of Portuguese people that drive me crazy with the amount of crap that comes out of their mouths.

Portuguese hype around Ronaldo???? How about world wide hype?? How about the fact that he's won world player of the year?? How about the fact that he will be the runner up for it this year?? How about the fact that he's been an intrical part in Portugal's good results of the last 6 years?? How about the fact that he has had an enormous impact on Portuguese football?? You may not like him and what he represents and that's fine, but his impact to the sport in undeniable.

Yep, he's a poster boy for simulation as well.

By the way, Korea beat Italy in Extra time, not on penalties.

You're right. I was thinking of Spain. The point still stands.

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You're right. I was thinking of Spain. The point still stands.

No, Korea wasn't better than Portugal, Italy and Spain in 02, but that's the beauty of sport.

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yep, he's a poster boy for simulation as well.

Yeah, argument has been discussed ad nauseam.......not wasting my time.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by valo403

I agree with most of this, but I don't see Barry as a massive upgrade over a healthy and in form Hargreaves. Hargreaves has been England's best player a number of times in the recent past, and he's a natural for the holding midfield ball-winner role. The big caveat of course is the healthy and in form part, I'm not sure he's going to be there by July.

I'm not sure hes ever going to be there. The guy defines injury prone, and I dont know if he can recover from this. When was the last time he played a competitive match?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm not sure hes ever going to be there. The guy defines injury prone, and I dont know if he can recover from this. When was the last time he played a competitive match?

Man, it's been so long I don't even remember. Last season for sure, not sure how long into it.

He's a great player, but I agree I'm not sure that his health will ever come back to a level where he can play up to his ability.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm not sure hes ever going to be there. The guy defines injury prone, and I dont know if he can recover from this. When was the last time he played a competitive match?

Ledley King also says "Hello."

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by The Goon

From reading this thread, it seems like the only two countries worth watching in RSA 2010 are England and Portugal. No love for Spain? Netherlands? Brazil?

...New Zealand?

I think Spain and Brazil go in as co-favorites at this point, although up until Euro 2008 Spain were known as one of if not the biggest chokers in international tournaments.

After that I would put England, Netherlands, Germany, Italy in the next group. England has all ready been discussed, I think the Netherlands have some of the best attacking options in the world but if they go up against a team like Italy than can frustrate them they could be in trouble. Germany have had tons of success at the u21 and u19 tournaments lately and they really need someone to step up from those teams and make an impact, most likely Ozil. because Klose and Ballack are not the same players they were at past torunaments, but they still have Schweinsteiger and Podolski who seem to thrive when playing for Germany. Italy are always a threat to win 1-0 every game and if they get out of their group will be one of the toughest outs in the tournament.

next group I would have France, Argentina, Portugal, Cameroon and the Ivory Coast. All teams with tons of talent but for some reason or another (mostly coaching) haven't been able to put it all together in their current form. But if they ever get their form they could win it all.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by valo403

I agree with most of this, but I don't see Barry as a massive upgrade over a healthy and in form Hargreaves. Hargreaves has been England's best player a number of times in the recent past, and he's a natural for the holding midfield ball-winner role. The big caveat of course is the healthy and in form part, I'm not sure he's going to be there by July.

I think Barry works better with the current set up, he is supposed to cover for when Lampard moves up. Which Hargreaves can do, but I think Barry is a superior passer and can create a little more.

Hargreaves was excellent when he was healthy, but in the current team I think he would be on the bench

[wpgflamesfan]

I'm still in shock that slovenia qualified over russia. After the first game i thought surely it was over. Great year for slovenian sports with Anze Kopitar lighting up the league and now qualify for the world cup. Not bad for a country with less people then Alberta

[Locke]

Originally Posted by wpgflamesfan

I'm still in shock that slovenia qualified over russia. After the first game i thought surely it was over. Great year for slovenian sports with Anze Kopitar lighting up the league and now qualify for the world cup. Not bad for a country with less people then Alberta

Begs the question: What are we doing wrong?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Locke

Begs the question: What are we doing wrong?

We don't care. To me it's as simple as that. Sure there are a lot of people in Canada who do care, but as a nation world cup qualification falls well down the list of sporting goals. As much as soccer Canada has mismanaged things over the last decade they also don't have much to work with in terms of resources and budget. The skill is there, at least at a level to put us in a position to make the final concacaf group, but the organization and direction is lacking. A team like Canada, or Slovenia, can't afford to have anything less than a singular focus and I just don't see that with Canadian soccer. I hope it turns around, the potential is there, but it's always going to be a battle.

[d_phaneuf]

another problem for Canada, and to an extent the US

if a Canadian or American born player is world class, they are more likely to play for another country through their ancestry. Look at Hargreaves playing for England, or recently Guiseppe Rossi playing for Italy instead of the US.

Both would be far and away the best players for their countries but why play for Canada or the US when realistically the highest thing you can achieve is a gold cup. And may never have the chance to play in a the world cup, or the Euros