Don't mean to be picky, but vaccines actually confer a net cost savings. They are the most predictable aspect of preventative medicine. Obviously the above stated examples (obesity, etc.) lead to great financial strain on the medical system.
Don't get me wrong, I agree. Was just mentioning it as a cost.
You seem like a man in the know. I asked this before and have still no answer, and it's bugging the hell out of me.
Given that adjuvants in vaccines = increased immunity and it's speculated that they will provide increased protection for any potential mutations.
Why has it taken a pandemic for Health Canada to finally approve adjuvants in flu vaccines? When one would think given the seasonal variation of normal flu years they would have had a greater preventative effect in years past? Why didn't they approve it in the past?
The data hasn't changed significantly in the last 2-3 years.
Is it basically so more of the vaccine can be rolled out? Emergency times call for emergency measures?
So you seem quite knowledgable about the whole situation... is the H1N1 risk worth pre-empting the regular vaccination schedule for children? I'm now worrying about H1N1 and meningitis for my kid... it sucks!
I am by no means a public health policy expert but I assume that in a situation with finite resources, the population benefit of vaccinating for H1N1 showed greater public benefit than regular childhood vaccinations. I would assume that theoretically analysis showed that while meningitis deaths may go up in the short term, more lives (including those of infants) would be saved by diverting resources to H1N1. This is only my own personal theory. I have no actual firsthand knowledge on this.
I will be the first to say this thread is changing my mind a bit on wanting to get it because some people are bringing up some quality points however I am still reserved and want to hear all angles. I will not be rushing to get this shot tomorrow but as more information comes out I may re-think my position.
I understand it could be too late by then but that is a risk I am willing to make until I am comfortable.
To be fair, a big part of some doctors' concerns is simply that there is not enough information. Not that they are totally against it.
I'm not totally against vaccines, either. It's just something that should be well studied, certainly before is mass pushed on the entire population.
I'll say too, that I had been totally against getting the vaccine myself too, and I've progressed to at least monitoring the situation and pondering it more. I'm certainly not convinced yet.
I am by no means a public health policy expert but I assume that in a situation with finite resources, the population benefit of vaccinating for H1N1 showed greater public benefit than regular childhood vaccinations. I would assume that theoretically analysis showed that while meningitis deaths may go up in the short term, more lives (including those of infants) would be saved by diverting resources to H1N1. This is only my own personal theory. I have no actual firsthand knowledge on this.
Makes sense. Kind of brutal with the "meningitis deaths may go up in the short term" though. I waited 6 weeks for her vaccination appointment. And we're now 5 days away from the appointment and they called today to tell me it needs to be rescheduled til end of November and there is nowhere else we can go. I'm all for everyone getting the H1N1 vaccine, but I think meningitis is still a pretty big deal. Frustrating.
Don't get me wrong, I agree. Was just mentioning it as a cost.
You seem like a man in the know. I asked this before and have still no answer, and it's bugging the hell out of me.
Given that adjuvants in vaccines = increased immunity and it's speculated that they will provide increased protection for any potential mutations.
Why has it taken a pandemic for Health Canada to finally approve adjuvants in flu vaccines? When one would think given the seasonal variation of normal flu years they would have had a greater preventative effect in years past? Why didn't they approve it in the past?
The data hasn't changed significantly in the last 2-3 years.
Is it basically so more of the vaccine can be rolled out? Emergency times call for emergency measures?
Couple comments regarding this. Adjuvants allow the use of approximately 1/4th of the regular viral load in a vaccine to get the equivalent immune response. Therefore, less of the virus needs to be replicated in order to produce the same amount of vaccines. This was necessary this time around as the production time of this vaccine needed to be shortened (seasonal flu vaccine production usually begins almost one year in advance) and the virus was more difficult than average to replicate in a lab setting. Therefore, a smaller amount of virus was available with greater demand for the vaccine. I assume that the reason this went through approval only this year has to do with the fact that we have never had a situation before where an adjuvant was required and hence all seasonal flu vaccines (in North America) were developed without it. Also, it should be noted that an adjuvant does not provide improved immunity against a potential mutant strain. However, luckily this particular H1N1 subtype does not seem to be mutating currently, so the vaccine will likely be very well matched. Hopefully my rambling makes some sense.
So ... what exactly is the problem/concern with the US?
Given that the adjuvant vaccine would significantly address their shortages and it's been declared a national emergency surely you would think there would be a process in place for fast-tracking its approval?
Wish I could comment on this. I am no medical expert, all I have is a biology degree which amounts to absolutely nothing in this context.
I found this just googling idly. Since I have no knowledge of this, I have to rely on those who do, and overwhelmingly I have been urged by many people high up in the medical community to get this vaccine.
Can I assume you have no problems with cuts to health care and long waiting times in emerg?
What's cuts to health care got to do with it?
And no, I've no problems with long waiting times in emerg. They've got a triage system in place for a reason.
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Originally Posted by Dion
Waiting could prove to be fatal.
Waiting also means making a more informed decision. As I said earlier to me it's a risk perception issue. My perception of the risk based on the information I've received is that it isn't severe enough to make me want to rush out and get me and my family vaccinated tomorrow not that I'd be able to anyways. Yours is different and I've no problem with that.
My perception is open to change. I think I'm in the same boat as a few folks here. Undecided leaning on the side of getting it but have concerns re. the lack of data, lack of agreement amongst governments in approving the vaccine and lack of overwhelming agreement from health care providers globally, locally and family).
A) Some doctors may have reservations about the H1N1 shot from the small sample size and accelerated production of the vaccine, but that has in no means dissuaded them from getting the shot. I can speak on behalf of a significant number of doctors that since we come in contact with several questionable cases a day, to not get vaccinated would not be smart.
B) Even if you are not in a high risk group, if you are in close contact with high risk groups, the general consensus is to recommend vaccination. Sure you may be ok, but what if you pass it off to your kids.
C) If you in any way experience flu-like symptoms, if it is mild => STAY HOME and don't go around spreading it in the clinics, ER. But if there is a sudden worsening, do not hesitate to seek medical attention. The cases in the news are rare cases in which symptoms accelerate so people have to be cognizant of it.
D) If you contact a known H1N1, go to your doctor and be assessed for possible usage of Tamiflu. It may soften the blow of the illness.
However, don't do what one guy did today => show up, yell and cough at the receptionist and demand to be seen immediately.
E) Again, we have evidenced many previously well individuals become very sick with H1N1 despite being in "low risk groups", and I remind people that the risk of the vaccine (predominantly neurological related effects) is still smaller than your risk of contracting H1N1 and dying from it (which is already a fairly small risk).
F) The actual vaccine has a specific adjuvant in it, thereby causing a more intense localized reaction => ie. pain and soreness at injection site, mild fever, muscles aches, but this should only last for a couple of days. It CANNOT cause an actual flu. The only time you should absolutely stay away from the shot is if you have an allergy to eggs.
G) Yes, you can get both the seasonal flu vaccine and the H1N1 vaccine at once. They do not have to be a certain time period apart to be administered.
Again, it is a very personal decision and if people do in the end choose not to get it, it is completely up to them as long as they make an informed choice. Seriously though, to all the people who ask their doctors whether or not they should get a shot, its kind of silly isn't it? Of course most of us would say yes and advise you of the small probability of risk involved, and then tell you to make your own choice.
Have fun getting or not getting your shots!
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Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
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Originally Posted by Bagor
What's cuts to health care got to do with it?
Lifestyle choices related diseases that you have no issues with put a huge financial strain on the health care system.
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And no, I've no problems with long waiting times in emerg. They've got a triage system in place for a reason.
Then why all the talk in the news about heath regions trying to reduce wait times?
That triage system doesn't guarentee a quick visit to a doctor either. People have died because they couldn't get timely treatment.
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Waiting also means making a more informed decision. As I said earlier to me it's a risk perception issue. My perception of the risk based on the information I've received is that it isn't severe enough to make me want to rush out and get me and my family vaccinated tomorrow not that I'd be able to anyways. Yours is different and I've no problem with that.
My perception is open to change. I think I'm in the same boat as a few folks here. Undecided leaning on the side of getting it but have concerns re. the lack of data, lack of agreement amongst governments in approving the vaccine and lack of overwhelming agreement from health care providers globally, locally and family).
Couple comments regarding this. Adjuvants allow the use of approximately 1/4th of the regular viral load in a vaccine to get the equivalent immune response. Therefore, less of the virus needs to be replicated in order to produce the same amount of vaccines. This was necessary this time around as the production time of this vaccine needed to be shortened (seasonal flu vaccine production usually begins almost one year in advance) and the virus was more difficult than average to replicate in a lab setting. Therefore, a smaller amount of virus was available with greater demand for the vaccine. I assume that the reason this went through approval only this year has to do with the fact that we have never had a situation before where an adjuvant was required and hence all seasonal flu vaccines (in North America) were developed without it.
So it wouldn't be wrong for me to speculate that the only reason the adjuvanted vaccine was approved this year by HC is because of a time and demand issue on the product? i.e. the pandemic.
But again I still feel as if there's a bit of the picture missing as to why they weren't approving it before given that it's shown to be more effective thus more preventative.
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Originally Posted by joe_mullen
Also, it should be noted that an adjuvant does not provide improved immunity against a potential mutant strain. However, luckily this particular H1N1 subtype does not seem to be mutating currently, so the vaccine will likely be very well matched. Hopefully my rambling makes some sense.
Nothing definite but it's claimed that it possibly can.
"Current clinical evidence shows that an adjuvanted vaccine is safe and will also help cause a stronger immune response, protect more quickly, and give better protection if the influenza pandemic virus changes slightly."
Which still begs the question ... wouldn't this think make a lot more sense in years past where there's a bit more guesswork re the strain of the virus involved.
Heard on the drive-in today that they may run out of the vaccine early next week. So it might not be as hard of a choice as some fence sitters first thought!
Anyway, this announcement combined with the latest death is probably just going to increase the lines and panic even more. Great.
And thankfully I don't live in the states where "you'll be labeled a criminal and deadly force will be allowed to be used against you if you refuse this vaccine "" .
Dude's worried about some "Julian Barr" chap as well. No idea who he is.
His name is "Doc" for anyone that wants to discredit him.
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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And thankfully I don't live in the states where "you'll be labeled a criminal and deadly force will be allowed to be used against you if you refuse this vaccine "" .
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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Originally Posted by Bagor
I wasn't even close to being serious.
yeah i am aware you werent serious...but that idiot in the video IS serious...that they can use deadly force on you to make you get vaccinated?? Its an absolute and complete lie.
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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Originally Posted by Sly
Apparently you can get rid of this virus by isolating yourself in your home for 7 days straight according to my school's notice email.... true?
If you have it already...yes. that would be typical for incubation and actual illness...or very close too the needed time anyhow. However, if you dont have it, you wont build the antibodies needed to fend it off, and you are right back at square 1 when you emerge from your week long hiatus.
Makes sense. Kind of brutal with the "meningitis deaths may go up in the short term" though. I waited 6 weeks for her vaccination appointment. And we're now 5 days away from the appointment and they called today to tell me it needs to be rescheduled til end of November and there is nowhere else we can go. I'm all for everyone getting the H1N1 vaccine, but I think meningitis is still a pretty big deal. Frustrating.
Got the same call at our house today. Our 4 month old was supposed to go in on Monday for his vaccination.
