Driver Needed - Halloween Night. $160 for 4 hours

[valo403]

Originally Posted by COGENT

Obviously the point to all this legal talk is to help and I'm sure it's appreciated. However, it's scary how close we are getting to the States in this regard, especially when I guy is just trying to get his drunk friends home safe.

It's an awesome idea Johnny and I hope you find someone.

This isn't a matter of getting closer to the States at all, it's not as if this is a new thing. Insurance companies aren't going to cover things that aren't included in their policies, regardless of whether they're north or south of the 49th.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

I'm no expert on insurance law, however there seems to be a fundamental divide creeping up between the A) Yes it's ok camp, and B) No it's not crowd.

Here's what I'm gathering as the facts

Hard Facts:
JohnnyTitan is having a party
JohnnyTitan wants his party goes to arrive home safely
JohnnyTitan is looking for someone to drive his car to take people home
JohnnyTitan is willing to compensate the driver for his troubles

Hypothetical Facts:
JohnnyTitan finds a driver (because I'm creative let's call him DriverMan)
DriverMan takes JohnnyTitan's car and brings guests home
DriverMan is in an accient

Question:
Does JohnnyTitan's insurance cover the accident?



Ok so the issues that were cited are:

Question #11 a) on a Standard auto insurance application :
Will the automobile be rented or leased or used for carrying passengers for compensation or hire, or for carrying explosives or radioactive material? If so provide details.

and

"(v) Such other automobile is not used for carrying passengers for compensation or hire or for commercial delivery"

Ok, so there's what we're dealing with.

Again I'm no expert in insurance law, or insurance policy

However here's what I'm thinking:

Question #11 a) on a Standard auto insurance application :
Will the automobile be rented or leased or used for carrying passengers for compensation or hire, or for carrying explosives or radioactive material? If so provide details.

"(v) Such other automobile is not used for carrying passengers for compensation or hire or for commercial delivery"

In both statments the issue is in regards to the automobile and not the driver.

Therefore, if DriverMan was using JohnnyTitan's vehicle, then according to the information provided it should be perfectly fine.

If however, DriverMan used his own car with the same policy, then no dice, the car is part of DriverMan's hire.


JohnnyTitan, check with your insurance company or call the free lawyer advice line that Alberta has (I think they have one, I'm sure I've seen a toll-free number posted here before). Better to be safe than sorry, but all in all I can't see it being a problem.

Hell even if DriverMan got in an accident and it was found that what was going on violated your insurance policy and the insurance company wouldn't cover it, can you imagine the PR disaster they'd take? Not insuring that level of responsiblity? I'm willing to bet you'd have law firms willing to take that case on contingency to make a name for themselves (or futher their already good name)



Edit: I see you found a driver. Awesome, hope you have a great night. On an unrelated note, rather than study for my law midterms I work out a case like this (haven't taken insurance law yet, and I'm not at U of C or U of A so again take everything I say with a grain of salt)

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by ruddstud

LOL, insurance companies would just overlook all the legal stuff, pat you on the back for being a good samaritan and say, no worries, we'll cover this one.............

No, they would understand that a judge would interpret this differently then them and pay out before having a judgement go against them and be on for fee's etc.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

I'm no expert on insurance law, however there seems to be a fundamental divide creeping up between the A) Yes it's ok camp, and B) No it's not crowd.

Here's what I'm gathering as the facts

Hard Facts:
JohnnyTitan is having a party
JohnnyTitan wants his party goes to arrive home safely
JohnnyTitan is looking for someone to drive his car to take people home
JohnnyTitan is willing to compensate the driver for his troubles

Hypothetical Facts:
JohnnyTitan finds a driver (because I'm creative let's call him DriverMan)
DriverMan takes JohnnyTitan's car and brings guests home
DriverMan is in an accient

Question:
Does JohnnyTitan's insurance cover the accident?



Ok so the issues that were cited are:

and

Ok, so there's what we're dealing with.

Again I'm no expert in insurance law, or insurance policy

However here's what I'm thinking:


In both statments the issue is in regards to the automobile and not the driver.

Therefore, if DriverMan was using JohnnyTitan's vehicle, then according to the information provided it should be perfectly fine.

If however, DriverMan used his own car with the same policy, then no dice, the car is part of DriverMan's hire.


JohnnyTitan, check with your insurance company or call the free lawyer advice line that Alberta has (I think they have one, I'm sure I've seen a toll-free number posted here before). Better to be safe than sorry, but all in all I can't see it being a problem.

Hell even if DriverMan got in an accident and it was found that what was going on violated your insurance policy and the insurance company wouldn't cover it, can you imagine the PR disaster they'd take? Not insuring that level of responsiblity? I'm willing to bet you'd have law firms willing to take that case on contingency to make a name for themselves (or futher their already good name)



Edit: I see you found a driver. Awesome, hope you have a great night. On an unrelated note, rather than study for my law midterms I work out a case like this (haven't taken insurance law yet, and I'm not at U of C or U of A so again take everything I say with a grain of salt)

You glossed over the fact that the automobile could be considered to have been leased in this scenario, and the failure to disclose said lease could be a violation of the policy.

Work on your issue spotting before the midterm, don't want you to drop any points.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

No, they would understand that a judge would interpret this differently then them and pay out before having a judgement go against them and be on for fee's etc.

Riiight, insurance companies never litigate claims. It's not a significant sector of legal practice at all.

There's a one in a billion chance of something like this going bad, so I apologize for any potential fear mongering I may have assisted in. It's just interesting to discuss possible scenarios.

[JohnnyTitan]

Wow - quite the debate I've been missing. You know - I'm busy trying to plan a big party here!

Anyhow - I am happy to report that capatilism and (IMO) common sense has won out over the fear-mongering. I have had nine or ten PMs of people willing to do the driving. I had just as many last year. So overall, at least some people seem to agree with my handling of the situation.

Honestly - I feel sorry for those of you who are so paranoid that you repeatedly pursuade people that this is a bad idea. You are over-looking one HUGE fact - I am hosting over 100 people at my house on Saturday night. How much liability am I already incurring? What if someone is hurt at my party? What if there is a fight? What if illegal substances are brought onto my premesis? How about my own personal property being stolen or damaged? Or if they don't take my offer of a ride and get in an accident of their own? What if my brother catches gonorrhea?!?!

All these things are huge deterrants to throwing a party. And the fact is, I'm probably somewhat (totally?) responsible / liable for my guests whether I supply their transportation or not. There are cases where people get in accidents and bars or party-hosters are found guilty.

So what to do? Not have a giant party? Maybe not even have a few friends over? Maybe I shouldn't even leave my house because of all the bad things that could happen to me in the big-bad world. But I could get hurt in my house too. Maybe I have to bubble-wrap all the sharp edges in my house. Hmm...maybe I should just live in a bubble!!

And Jarome Iginla shouldn't fight. Even though it's in his very life fabric to play with emotion and stand-up for his team mates...what if hey hurts his pinky?!?!

What I'm getting at is the fact that I choose not to worry about too much. I've had over 100 people at my house 5 times in the last three years. I've had a driver every time. As someoone else noted, my friends aren't ######bags and nothing has ever been intentionally damaged or stolen. Life is fun, Halloween is fun and Saturday night is going to be fun. Thank you all for replying to my request - in the end I only need one driver because many people do a) Stay sober, b) Bring a spouce / DD of their own, c) Call a cab or take the train or d) stay over. However there are at least 20 people who will get home safe (and possibly not try to drive themselves) because I have a driver on hand. I feel good for supplying this option.

I do like the idea of calling my insurance company to see what they say. In no way will what they say deter me from my hired-driver ways, but it's easy to make the call and many points have been brought up that I didn't think of before. Thank you. But to the guy who ultimately does drive for me on Saturday:
- I hope you have a little bit of fun. There will be some memorable things going on and although you'll be busy, it should be good.
- If you do get in an accident in my vehicle, my only concern is for your safety and the well being of everyone else in the vehicle. My Explorer is not worth that much and accidents do happen. Drive safe and know that I appreciate what you're doing and in no way are you to worry about anything else. As long as you're sober - I'll take the responsibility for everything else!!

[theg69]

You're having this big awesome party... and you haven't invited the CP community... for SHAME!

LOL.. btw I think it's great you are being creative in getting people home, it's certainly safer in the long run, I sure as heck wouldn't want to be on the road with anyone driving after any amount of alcohol.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTitan

.

While I appreciate what you are saying, and applaud you for making the extra effort to get people home safe and sound....

Hosting a party at your residence yes potentially can lead to things going wrong, many possibilities. But I submit that the act of hiring someone you don't know to transport friends is infinitely more dangerous. For both the driver, your friends, and the person that could be held liable, you.

Will anything go wrong? Highly unlikely. But god forbid it does, your act of kindness could turn into a world of hurt. Just something to consider, best of luck with your bash.

BTW, I would strongly suggest that EVERYONE that plans on drinking do NOT drive to your party. It's common sense that so many people miss, just like people that drive to a bar. How many people drive to a bar with the full expectation that they are going to leave the car in the lot for the rest of the night? The fact that people drive to a bar is 95% the reason for DUI deaths.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by valo403

You glossed over the fact that the automobile could be considered to have been leased in this scenario, and the failure to disclose said lease could be a violation of the policy.

Work on your issue spotting before the midterm, don't want you to drop any points.

Considered to have been leased? Not that I'm disagreeing, I just don't completely follow. You mean JohnnyTitan leased the car, or the fact that DriverMan would be driving JohnnyTitan's car for compensation means he is in turn leasing? If so, without payment for the use of the car how is there consideration there?

Again, not disagreeing. I'm no expert, just don't understand your point.

[COGENT]

Originally Posted by valo403

This isn't a matter of getting closer to the States at all, it's not as if this is a new thing. Insurance companies aren't going to cover things that aren't included in their policies, regardless of whether they're north or south of the 49th.

I wasn't really referring to the insurance, more the being sued part. You're right though... Insurance companies are Insurance companies not matter where you go.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by theg69

You're having this big awesome party... and you haven't invited the CP community... for SHAME!

I have no interest in attending a party thrown by someone who can't spell our captain's name.

[GreenLantern]

I think he was poking fun at Rob Kerr..

[Antithesis]

Rob ... Kerr? Am I missing something?

[JohnnyTitan]

Originally Posted by zamler

.

Hosting a party at your residence yes potentially can lead to things going wrong, many possibilities. But I submit that the act of hiring someone you don't know to transport friends is infinitely more dangerous. For both the driver, your friends, and the person that could be held liable, you.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally Posted by zamler

BTW, I would strongly suggest that EVERYONE that plans on drinking do NOT drive to your party. It's common sense that so many people miss, just like people that drive to a bar. How many people drive to a bar with the full expectation that they are going to leave the car in the lot for the rest of the night? The fact that people drive to a bar is 95% the reason for DUI deaths.

There is another fact that many people in this thread are probably over-looking. It is near IMPOSSILBE to get a cab on a busy night in Calgary. If you're downtown or on 17th ave, you can probably flag one. But trying to get 4 or 5 cabs to your residence at 2:00am this Saturday will be impossible.

So what I'm getting at is that people don't drive to my place, or they do so expecting to leave vehicles. They have a great time and at 2:00 or 3:00 they want to go home. BUT THEY CAN'T GET HOME! No cabs can be contacted, public transit has ended for the night and there are not enough DDs in the crowd.

This is a TERRIBLE way to end a good night. Everyone is tired and just wants to get home at any cost and there are literally no options. Having a driver makes everything work out!

So if you want to focus your efforts into something positive, contact the City of Calgary and tell them to get more Cabs on the road. Or contact MADD and tell them to get more Cabs on the road.

If you don't believe me - try calling 299-9999 at 2:00am Sunday morning. You will be greeted with a busy signal, I guarantee it.

(And I actually do pre-order some cabs as well and that works out pretty good, but it's impossible to have the right number pre-ordered)

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Considered to have been leased? Not that I'm disagreeing, I just don't completely follow. You mean JohnnyTitan leased the car, or the fact that DriverMan would be driving JohnnyTitan's car for compensation means he is in turn leasing? If so, without payment for the use of the car how is there consideration there?

Again, not disagreeing. I'm no expert, just don't understand your point.

Well it's a bit of a stretch, but as you probably know by now law school exams always have these stupid little things thrown in that you're expected to do something with.

I'm no expert here, but I was thinking that the hiring coupled with the use of the hirer's car could be construed as an employment relationship as well as a short term lease of the vehicle to the hired party. Consideration wouldn't be an issue, the simple act of relinquishing use of the vehicle for 4 hours is sufficient to constitute consideration.

It's a pretty weak argument, at least on what we have here, but I always found that stuff like that jumped me up a letter grade on my exams.

Sorry for turning your party into a law school exam JohnnyTitan

[troutman]

Why not have a big pajama party!

[JustAnotherGuy]

This thread is funny. Buddy is having a party and he is stepping up to help out his guests. He is doing the right thing.

Then people who have too much time on their hands are being party poopers. To the party poopers I say. "Go outside and have some fun, let your hair down and stop worrying so much. Come on you can do it. Make that first step out of your paranoid state. Okay, how did that feel? Fun huh? " LOL

[troutman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTitan

There is another fact that many people in this thread are probably over-looking. It is near IMPOSSILBE to get a cab on a busy night in Calgary. If you're downtown or on 17th ave, you can probably flag one. But trying to get 4 or 5 cabs to your residence at 2:00am this Saturday will be impossible.

There are other services like Keys Please, and Operation Red Nose.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by valo403

I'm no expert here, but I was thinking that the hiring coupled with the use of the hirer's car could be construed as an employment relationship as well as a short term lease of the vehicle to the hired party. Consideration wouldn't be an issue, the simple act of relinquishing use of the vehicle for 4 hours is sufficient to constitute consideration.

It's a pretty weak argument, at least on what we have here, but I always found that stuff like that jumped me up a letter grade on my exams.

Sorry for turning your party into a law school exam JohnnyTitan

Fair enough I see what you're saying. And thanks for not thinking my responce was snarky, I didn't intent it to be, but alas this is the internet.

My only question would be, if you have an employement contract (which I agree with you on no doubt) would the car really be leased to the employee? I'm just thinking that if I have a company car, is the car leased to me, or to the company that I'm using as an agent of the company? (Again, I don't know the actual legal answer to this). I just think it's too much of a stretch.

Originally Posted by valo403

Well it's a bit of a stretch, but as you probably know by now law school exams always have these stupid little things thrown in that you're expected to do something with.

Actually I don't know what law school exams are like (semester 1, year 1) so I'm just finding out, litterally right now. Good idea thinking of the stretch arguments to throw in as a side. I'll be sure to try and do that myself.


Back to the issue at hand, JohnnyTitan I guess we're saying it's fine, we think. I personally don't mean to be a party pooper, just like the debate that got started.


The real question we should be asking here is what kind of alcohol will be provided? Is there going to be enough Rum, Vodka and Tequila for all? Will there be pictures that end up on Break.com?

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by theg69

You're having this big awesome party... and you haven't invited the CP community... for SHAME!

Yeah, I can't imagine why he wouldn't want to invite a bunch of people to his party who would discuss the legality of automobile insurance all night.