Who's getting the H1N1 shot?

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by troutman

Galileo was hardly a pseudo-scientist. Scientists correct other scientists all of the time.

Your absolutely correct. However, at the time, he would have been. As he thought against the grain and church he was punished and told he didn't know anything. Its only AFTER the fact was he proven to be right and now hailed as a scientist. Before, he was just a guy with a crazy idea.

That's why I'm confused as to why there are scientist's and doctor's out there saying this vaccine is unsafe and they are not being listened to with the same regard as those pushing the vaccine or being categorized as Silver put it as "pseudo-scientists".

It appears that if you don't agree with the shot, well then you must be just plain stupid. This is not the basis of science.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

How would those numbers change if 100% of people were vaccinated? Probably not a whole lot. Many people, like myself, rarely get sick, and don't need a flu shot. Many people get flu shots because they regularly get sick, and even after a flu shot they still regularly get sick.

So you think that taking a treatment that has been proven to work and making it more widespread will do nothing? I do not follow your logic.

The single best way to fight the flu is to rest at home, if at all possible.

We live in a society that seems to think that getting sick is such a terrible thing. It's not. People sometimes get sick. Sometimes they die. That's part of life.

This makes no sense at all. Of course it's part of life, but most people, (perhaps not yourself?) would like their life to continue as long as possible. This is the whole idea of modern medicine. What point are you trying to make?

[Machiavelli]

I didn't think the nasal spray vaccine was available in Canada.

[Sainters7]

Can you get the swine flu shot without the regular flu shot? I'm just wondering because its the last day up here and I'm wonderin if I should go.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Can you get the swine flu shot without the regular flu shot? I'm just wondering because its the last day up here and I'm wonderin if I should go.

Might want to go ask the clinic or whoever. I believe if you get the regular shot, you can't get the pig shot for a period of time. I'm not sure if that's 10 days or two months.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Burninator

This makes no sense at all. Of course it's part of life, but most people, (perhaps not yourself?) would like their life to continue as long as possible. This is the whole idea of modern medicine. What point are you trying to make?

Let me put it this way.

I have a healthy immune system - and am healthy without flu vaccines, and the like. Now let's say going on from today, there are two versions of me, one that gets every vaccine, and takes drugs every time I get a headache, etc. The other version of me doesn't get vaccines, of take drugs simply for convenience. Which version is going to be healthier in the long run? The version of me that the immune system has been trained not not work very hard, or the immune system that's been allowed to fight off sickness when it comes up?

[tete]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Can you get the swine flu shot without the regular flu shot? I'm just wondering because its the last day up here and I'm wonderin if I should go.

You definitely can get the H1N1 without having the seasonal flu shot.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I'm trying not to be over dramatic, but there is so much misinformation about the flu and the flu shot in this thread, it's hard not to get a little excited. I'll be getting my flu shot this year as I do every year. Everyone of course has the choice not too, but I think everyone should be informed with the correct information first.

I wasn't referring to you as being overly dramatic. In fact you've been posting some of the best links, backing your statements up with medical sources etc. and that's exactly what I'm hoping to see in this thread; so thank you for that.
If those sources and experts start convincingly saying the shots have been properly tested, and I should be getting one, I'll see you in line. Just not gonna jump at it without the right research.

Think of it as the same as wearing your seat belt. My chances are pretty low of getting into an accident. I've never worn my seat belt and I've never been in an accident. In fact I know someone who one time wore a seat belt and he got into an accident. Plus I figure that if I get into an accident without a seat belt that I will just be stronger for the next accident. Besides I have heard of people getting hurt by seat belts. I don't want to risk it.

Is a seat belt risk free? No. Is a seat belt 100% effective in a crash? No. Is it safer to wear your seat belt than not wear it? You bet. The flu vacinne is your seat belt against the flu.

Sorry, don't agree with this comparison at all. Wearing a seatbelt has no real downside.
Getting a shot that has not properly been researched and introducing chemicals into your bloodstream that you may not need can have extreme downsides, even deadly downsides.
If enough research leads me to believe the side effects of this shot are as harmless as a seatbelt, then great; but the jury is still out on this so it's not a fair comparison.

[Redliner]

I'll be getting both the regular flu shot and the H1N1 shot at the first available opportunity. I have a wife who works in the public school system and three school aged children who bring home pretty much every common virus under the sun, and one of my sons is a severe asthmatic. I am a pretty healthy guy and H1N1 for me would probably mean a bad case of the flu, but H1N1 for my son could easily be fatal, and that's not a chance I am willing to take. Why take the risk if there is a means to mitigate it? Seems like kind of a no-brainer to me. I know there is a lot of discussion over whether or not the vaccines are effective, but it seems to me that any protection is better than no protection at all.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Its amazing to me the blind faith that some people put in the medical community - they dont question anything - they just accept it because they play the "or you could die" card.

Astounding really.

It's amazing to me the blind faith that some people put in the Google community - they don't question anything - they just accept it because they play the "it's on the internet" card.

Astounding really.

[frege64]

If you're an idiot, then please, don't get the shot. This might be a great way to cull the herd. We might even get a Liberal government in Alberta.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by frege64

If you're an idiot, then please, don't get the shot.

Hurry up and get it my little guinea pig.

[photon]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I'm not saying that they aren't effective, or aren't safe, they are just unnecessary.

They aren't "unnecessary". There's plenty of reasons. People missing a week or two at work due to the flu (if you're sick for a day or two, if you were throwing up, then you didn't have the flu) has a significant impact on the economy. They contribte to herd immunity which protects people other than yourself, including those at a higher risk.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Some people will die of H1N1 despite having gotten the vaccine, and GASP! some people will not die despite not getting the shots.

Some people will die jumping out of airplanes despite having a parachute, and some people will NOT die despite not having a parachute, so having a parachute and not having a parachute are equivalent too.

Without specific #'s that statement is silly and misleading.

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Influenza kills 2000 - 8000 Canadians every year. Swine flu has so far killed 86.
I'm not sure which is the worst at this exact moment right now, but it's safe to say thousands will die this year from more common influenza's. Whether they're out there now, or coming in 3 weeks, they're coming as always.
If swine starts to get into those ranges of death, I'll line up for a shot too.

Why wait? By getting the shot now it may help it getting into those ranges? Save some lives... The seasonal flu shot is a prediction of what strains will be prevalent, while the H1N1 shot is for a known strain at the pandemic stage.

Originally Posted by Drury18

Your absolutely correct. However, at the time, he would have been. As he thought against the grain and church he was punished and told he didn't know anything. Its only AFTER the fact was he proven to be right and now hailed as a scientist. Before, he was just a guy with a crazy idea.

Wrong. He wasn't a guy with a crazy idea. He was a guy with evidence of an idea other people thought crazy. They thinking him crazy was based on their rejection of the notion based on their religious beliefs, or just based on inertia and their refusal to look at his evidence, not his idea.

Originally Posted by Drury18

That's why I'm confused as to why there are scientist's and doctor's out there saying this vaccine is unsafe and they are not being listened to with the same regard as those pushing the vaccine or being categorized as Silver put it as "pseudo-scientists".

It depends entirely on why they are saying it is unsafe. Do they have evidence? Published in journals? Discussions of actual data among peers? Not pseudo-scientists. Anecdotal evidence from their practice? Saying it's unsafe because people then pay attention to them? Playing the media because "they are persecuted by big pharma?" Pseudo-scientist.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Let me put it this way.

I have a healthy immune system - and am healthy without flu vaccines, and the like. Now let's say going on from today, there are two versions of me, one that gets every vaccine, and takes drugs every time I get a headache, etc. The other version of me doesn't get vaccines, of take drugs simply for convenience. Which version is going to be healthier in the long run? The version of me that the immune system has been trained not not work very hard, or the immune system that's been allowed to fight off sickness when it comes up?

This isn't how the immune system works.. I suggest you take what you just said and ask your doctor, or better an immunologist, and say it to them and see what the response is (with respect to vaccines, not drugs for headaches). You can't "train your immune system to not work very hard", it's not a muscle.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by photon

Wrong. He wasn't a guy with a crazy idea. He was a guy with evidence of an idea other people thought crazy. They thinking him crazy was based on their rejection of the notion based on their religious beliefs, or just based on inertia and their refusal to look at his evidence, not his idea.


It depends entirely on why they are saying it is unsafe. Do they have evidence? Published in journals? Discussions of actual data among peers? Not pseudo-scientists. Anecdotal evidence from their practice? Saying it's unsafe because people then pay attention to them? Playing the media because "they are persecuted by big pharma?" Pseudo-scientist.

Okay, so if I connect the dots from Reply 1 to Reply 2, I believe you actually help my case. If not completely prove it. They realistically have evidence of it being unsafe and yet the rest of the population would rather sit around with fingers in their ears singing and refusing to look into it.

Like you said yourself "They thinking him crazy was based on their rejection of the notion based on their religious beliefs, or just based on inertia and their refusal to look at his evidence, not his idea"

No one wants to look into it because it doesn't support the general thoughts of the here and now, therefore its wrong. Or because there is belief we have to act fast or else? Or else what? If these people are right, you just incited mass panic. And if we can get a flu vaccine so quick, how come cancer and other diseases that have been around much longer are still an issue? 10+ years to work on a lung cancer drug but what 6 months for a flu vaccine for a brand new, super dangerous flu? BS. Total BS. This alone shows how untested and unresearched this thing is.

And don't even hand me that media attention stuff. Really, whose playing the better game. The doom and gloomers or the naysayers. Judging by several media outlets, its easily 10-1 doom and gloomers. No one wants to hear from anyone saying anything outside of get your shot to stay alive.

[BlackArcher101]

Before I was thinking I'd put it off... but just this past week I have had 3 (healthy) acquaintances become hospitalized with it, with one on life support. Considering I have never known anyone in my lifetime hospitalized with the regular influenza, I'm going to assume this is actually more severe. So I'll be getting it next week.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Drury18

Okay, so if I connect the dots from Reply 1 to Reply 2, I believe you actually help my case. If not completely prove it. They realistically have evidence of it being unsafe and yet the rest of the population would rather sit around with fingers in their ears singing and refusing to look into it.

Which evidence? If there was clear evidence that it was unsafe then it would be pulled, and I would of course support that.

Originally Posted by Drury18

No one wants to look into it because it doesn't support the general thoughts of the here and now, therefore its wrong. Or because there is belief we have to act fast or else? Or else what? If these people are right, you just incited mass panic.

What??? You do realize that when they do things like this, make a vaccine and test it, that the results are public right? Science is done in an open venue so other scientists can check, confirm, or refute the claims.

What you are saying here is that all the scientists are what, being coerced into not looking into it? Conspiracy theory much?

Originally Posted by Drury18

And if we can get a flu vaccine so quick, how come cancer and other diseases that have been around much longer are still an issue? 10+ years to work on a lung cancer drug but what 6 months for a flu vaccine for a brand new, super dangerous flu? BS. Total BS. This alone shows how untested and unresearched this thing is.

Wow. This statement alone demonstrates you are completely unqualified to make any judgment with respect to the efficacy and merits of any kind of medical technology.

Seriously, please just ask your doctor's opinion and go with that.

Originally Posted by Drury18

And don't even hand me that media attention stuff. Really, whose playing the better game. The doom and gloomers or the naysayers. Judging by several media outlets, its easily 10-1 doom and gloomers. No one wants to hear from anyone saying anything outside of get your shot to stay alive.

Who exactly is predicting doom and gloom?

The WHO isn't out there leveraging the media to get an unsubstantiated point across.

The media are what they are, they're going to find anything sensational and beat the hell out of it. It is what it is.

My point was "scientists" who can't get any attention through normal scientific processes so resort to media. "Pseudo-scientists".

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by fotze

Quit contributing to the fear mongering, that person obviously had not trained his immune system. My system like all others on CP is a well oiled fighting machine.

The nerve!!! How dare they get sick! haha.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by photon

This isn't how the immune system works.. I suggest you take what you just said and ask your doctor, or better an immunologist, and say it to them and see what the response is (with respect to vaccines, not drugs for headaches). You can't "train your immune system to not work very hard", it's not a muscle.

My wife and I have asked her doctor. Seriously, people will listen to what they want. Just becasue some doctors say that you should be getting them, doesn't mean that all (or even a majority) of doctors do. My wifes doctor says that regular handwashing, and staying home when you are sick, and coughing into your sleeve are far more important then getting vaccinated.

And of course that's the way the immune system works. Maybe "training" isn't exactly the right word, but the point is still true. I guarantee I'll be healthier in the long term by not vacinating for everything (and being mildly sick several times in between), and just going without.

Of course, I'm not going to say that what is best for myself personally is going to be best for everyone. For many people, vaccinating for these things is probably best.

If having a flu means that you are sick for more then one day at a time, then I've never had the flu in my life.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

My wifes doctor says that regular handwashing, and staying home when you are sick, and coughing into your sleeve are far more important then getting vaccinated.

You can only control one of those factors, if you're trying to prevent others from infecting you.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

How would those numbers change if 100% of people were vaccinated? Probably not a whole lot.

I am sure Small Pox would like to say something regarding this, but for some reason I can't find him. Maybe I can find Mr. Polio around here to make a comment on his behalf.

I just wonder if those who are declining the vaccine for safety reasons and then get really sick, are going to be concerned about the medical trials and safety issues regarding being placed on a respirator in the ICU?

Also, the concern within the medical community about this flu at this point is not regarding the levels of fatalities expected, but rather with how to deal with an extraordinary number of people who get really sick (but eventually recover). I know it has been all over the news lately the overcapacity within the hospitals and all the budget surpluses governments and health regions are dealing with...

Will most people be okay with their paycheck being delayed because the virus has gone through the payroll department? What about your power going out and taking a couple of days to be repaired since they are short on linemen? Willing to stay home from work to watch the kids because not enough teachers showed up? Hope you don't get in a serious car accident while the hospitals are swamped with 'robust' individuals who just need a little bit of help fighting off the flu virus on their own (with just a few days of help from the Health Region).

Our society can suffer plenty of expensive hiccoughs without a pandemic causing millions of deaths.